itt: evolution and trolling

[Doc Flabby]

Science or rather Scientific Method itself is based on a branch of philosophy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Science is ONLY based on what can be observed, measured and is testable.

Evelution has been tested. Its possible to see the results of gene mutations over generations. In fact we are even controlling these mutation and mixing DNA together. Most Americans are eating food that has been genetically modified. The evidence for evolution is that you can see parts of other anmicals and plants in our genes. We have like 20% of the genes that a bluebottle has.

Now this doesn't mean its true or correct, but it is testable. You can look back over generations, fossil records and see how things have changed.

How do you test the theory of intelligent design? You can't look back as people will just say "it was designed that way on purpose" or like the DNA is shared "because it was designed that way". It doesn't tell us anything new, or extend our knowledge which makes it a bad theory. You can't make predictions with it as you already know the answer.

ID doesn't help us learn more about things which makes it useless. Alot of the best Scientific Theories have been proved wrong (newtonian physics is a good example - newton got it wrong), yet they help us understand the world. I challenge anyone who believes in ID to tell me what contribution ID has made to the progress of science.

I'm all for alternative theories of why we have such a multitude of things on this planet, personally I don't think Evolution does explain everything, but its not possible to accept ID as science when its not.

[Fluffz]

I always found religion in the traditional forms of christianity or the like to be rather depressing explanations of existence that put you in a very weak position where the only escape is faith in exactly this religion.

Your argument is bound to the assumption time was created (by God) absolute and a chaotic evolution did not have enough place in it to occur. Good and fine, but if you - without a proof - are allowed to assume time was an omnipotent truth i am allowed to say time is an illusion created by you in the quest of evolution. It cant be used to describe what was before its existence. And so with your creation of time came the need for a God since the illusion of a mortal life was unacceptable for whatever reason. And this is where you should start to think: Hey if a good god gave me a mortal life, why do i know of eternity? Sounds kind of sardistic to me, doesnt it?

[milosh]

Everyone's postulating my beliefs in a hurry when I haven't even stated them. Just because you have some localized personal views of what Christianity is and stands for don't stamp them on my forehead. I was never attempting to prove ID but merely to present it as a possibility that best fits with my own personal observation of the universe.

[Kolar]

I don't think anyone is really concerned with what you believe but with how you attempt to prove and validate it with the physical world. ID is completely off base with Science today, evolution isn't. The point is not to take pot shots at evolution to invalidate and do away with it because your preferred choice was rejected but to actually work towards a better theory as Flabby said. If evolution doesn't fit to you and ID can't be peer reviewed then come back with something better.

Edit: But in the end the only good thing Exalt had to say was that Christianity is faith-based. It doesn't require science or anyone else to validate it. To do so takes away from the experience. It cheapens it equally as Christianity does when it attempts to exert influence over Science.

[DoTheFandango]

hey everybody
shut up for a minute.
listen, we both don't know who's right. that doesn't give either of us the right to say the other's wrong. One tries to use science, one uses faith and belief. Take whichever pill you wanna take people, does it really matter in the end?

[Cops]

DTF: I really don't think this thread has lots of people throwing shit in each other's faces, though I do agree with you.

[castromarx]

I think it matters. I would like humanity to reach enlightenment through peace, discovery, logic, reason and knowledge. ST: TNG vs. crackwhore Battlestar bitches and cylons. It's not a difficult choice.

Religion, faith and the belief in the supernatural as a basis for leading your life just hinders all of this. It's fucking 2008. Get over god and start building jetpacks already.

[Cops]

I think it matters. I would like humanity to reach enlightenment through peace, discovery, logic, reason and knowledge. ST: TNG vs. crackwhore Battlestar bitches and cylons. It's not a difficult choice.

Way to lead by example..

[castromarx]

Bring on the beheadings!

[Epinephrine]

If only Gran were a Christian, he wouldn't want to do any get rich quick schemes

[Fit of Rage]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought science consisted of observable evidence, not speculating on the guess that if there's something we can't explain that "God did it." It's the same problem that the Drake Equation has: a lot of really, REALLY unknown quantities being assumed for and then the resultant answer gets a really, REALLY assumed measure of accuracy.

[Cops]

Like the moderates standing on the senate floor I do not wish to agree with either side, for good reason this thread only has 3-4 people actively contributing.

This topic is rather tiresome.

[milosh]

There are just so many questions that can't be answered by the Theory of Evolution that I cannot accept it as a viable theory. I'm not asking for the answers to these questions, but I am asking how these questions can fit into the Theory of Evolution:

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?
2. Where did matter come from?
3. How did matter get so perfectly organized?
4. Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
5. How did life develop from non-life?
6. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
7. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
8. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)
9. What would you have said fifty years ago if I told you I had a living coelacanth in my aquarium?
10. How did photosynthesis evolve?
11. How did thought evolve?
12. Where did the human emotions, such as love, hate, jealously, and moral justice come from?
13. What are the odds that the evolutionary process, proceeding by random changes, would produce human beings, plus millions of species of animals, birds, fish, and insects, all with symmetrical features, i.e., one side being a mirror image of the other? We take symmetry in all these creatures for granted, but is that a reasonable outcome for a random process?
14. Why are there 2 sexes anyhow?
15. If the first generation of mating species didn't have parents, how did the mating pair get to that point anyhow? Isn't evolution supposed to progress when an offspring of a mating pair has a beneficial mutation?
16. How did the heart, lungs, brain, stomach, veins, blood, kidneys, etc. develop in the first animal by slow, minute steps and the animal survive while these changes were occurring?
17. Where are the trillions of fossils of such true transitional forms?

One of the most-powerful pieces of evidence against evolution is the fossil record. If evolution occurred by slow, minute changes in living creatures, there would be thousands of times more transitional forms of these creatures in the fossil beds than complete forms. Since the billions of fossils that have been found are all complete forms, the obvious conclusion is: Evolution has never occurred! Though evolutionists have stated that there are many transitional forms, this is simply not true. What evolutionists claim to be transitional forms all have fully functional parts. A true transitional form would have non-functioning parts or appendages, such as the nub of a leg or wing.

I'm not talking about a few flaws in the Theory. These are major unanswerable questions, many of which can by no means fit. How did unicellular organisms develop into multi-cellular organisms? Seriously, how does a wolf turn into a whale and where are the transitional fossils? How did something as complex as the human eye or brain happen by chance mutations and reactions, much more life itself!? The examples of extreme improbability I provided earlier only account for the spontaneous arrangement of the simplest forms of life; how can you explain that this life not only spontaneously arranged itself but survived, reproduced, and developed into a multi-cellular organism? The probability is just unfathomable. I cannot accept this theory.

EDIT: These aren't just questions I want to throw around at you so that you can just gloss over and say "Oh my goodness, is he at it again?". These are questions I want you to seriously stop and think about and concentrate on. The reason I believe ID is because it provides an answer to every question I have ever been asked(Though not always with undeniable evidence. My point is that the model FITS).

[Kolar]

The theory of evolution does not attempt to explain most of what you listed. ID just glosses over these questions as you asked us not to and gives a bland and unacceptable answer: God did it. It doesn't tell us anything about how any of the complex systems on our planet work.
I'm not saying it's easier to apply this religious/spiritual idea, not theory, to all of these questions but it does not fit the evidence we do have today. And just because we can't explain a lot of it doesn't mean we have to default to 'God did it'. If we were to do that with everything of significants we would still be in the dark ages.

But even so:
1: M theory
2: Heavier elements of Baryon matter (I.E. not dark matter) forms in high mass stars. Heavy elements are formed in such objects and are deposited out into the void when they go super-nova. The calcium in your bones as an example.
3: Matter is not organized. Our solar system as an example is a dirty place.
5: A complex number of chemical reactions in a suitable environment. Finding such environments and chemical compositions is what Phoenix is doing on the surface of Mars right now.
6: I wouldn't call it learning. The common flu reproduces.


I would suggest you watch "PBS Nova - Intelligent design on trail", it outlines the ID "debate" very well and the out come in Dover.

If it could be peer reviewed and compliment even some kind of currently held theory then it would have already. It may compliment your ego and personal world view as far as religion is concerned but most people can discern that the two exist in separate worlds and are best left that way.

The reason I believe ID is because it provides an answer to every question I have ever been asked or ever will be asked.

Thank you for explaining my point.

[Squeezer]

There are just so many questions that can't be answered by the Theory of Evolution that I cannot accept it as a viable theory. I'm not asking for the answers to these questions, but I am asking how these questions can fit into the Theory of Evolution:

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?
   Big Bang
2. Where did matter come from?
   Probably not God
3. How did matter get so perfectly organized?
   Dumb luck
4. Where did the energy come from to do all the organizing?
   See answer to #1
5. How did life develop from non-life?
   Not sure, but probably not from ribs and divine creation
6. When, where, why, and how did life learn to reproduce itself?
   Instinct and thousands of years of practice
7. With what did the first cell capable of sexual reproduction reproduce?
   Sperm and Egg most likely
8. Why would any plant or animal want to reproduce more of its kind since this would only make more mouths to feed and decrease the chances of survival? (Does the individual have a drive to survive, or the species? How do you explain this?)
   Plants and animals aren't that smart and are really good at survival.
9. What would you have said fifty years ago if I told you I had a living coelacanth in my aquarium?
   I'd probably say, "What's a coelacanth?"
10. How did photosynthesis evolve?
    Millions of years of training
11. How did thought evolve?
    The same way our brain continues to evolve today. We observed things and adapted accordingly
12. Where did the human emotions, such as love, hate, jealously, and moral justice come from?
    Not sure exactly which part (I've only taken psych 101...not for me), but some part of the brain controls these
13. What are the odds that the evolutionary process, proceeding by random changes, would produce human beings, plus millions of species of animals, birds, fish, and insects, all with symmetrical features, i.e., one side being a mirror image of the other? We take symmetry in all these creatures for granted, but is that a reasonable outcome for a random process?
    Pretty goddamn rare. Consider yourself and this planet very lucky.
14. Why are there 2 sexes anyhow?
    So that life can continue.
15. If the first generation of mating species didn't have parents, how did the mating pair get to that point anyhow? Isn't evolution supposed to progress when an offspring of a mating pair has a beneficial mutation?
    Not all humans evolved overnight. There were lots of Neanderthals around.
16. How did the heart, lungs, brain, stomach, veins, blood, kidneys, etc. develop in the first animal by slow, minute steps and the animal survive while these changes were occurring?
    No one can answer that, but I doubt it was God.
17. Where are the trillions of fossils of such true transitional forms?
    lawl see dinosaurs for proof that species existed before we were "given this Earth by God."

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