itt jerome scuggs asks for legal advice

[stark]

There has been a few supreme court cases involving car and how it is extended under the unreasonable search and seizure clause in the Fouth Amendment.

A house for example, is a "man's castle", where there are very few exigent circumstances that would allow a police to search without a warrant. However, when it comes to vehicles there is a little more room to breath. For one, vehicles are mobile, unlike houses, and and can allow easy transportation of something that is suspected to be illegal. If a law enforcement officer has probable cause to search a vehicle for contraband, enough cause that would warrant a warrent in another case, an officer can search a vehicle without a warrant (locked glove boxes and trunks with no access from the inside of the car ea. the seats that fold down need warrants).

Now, because there was a the cooler outside of the car and no proof of marijuana, I don't think there would have been probably cause to search the car.

And I agree with gen that you shouldn't ever concent to a search, no matter how innocent you are. My old criminal investigations teacher said if you ever get pulled over and a cop asks to look in your trunk, tell him no, regardless to what you have or don't have in there, because it's a right given to us to say no... I mean, that's more about principal, but they cannot assume or gather probable cause from a refusal to concent to a search.

[gran guerrero]

yeah folks, when you tell the officer no, remember to say these important words:


It's the principle of the matter.

[Bioture]

like others have said, pay it and leave it alone. The cop that was on site took it easy on you and your friends. It's just a civil case right now (i'm assuming that no misdemeanor charges were filed) and the money from those fund the police dept, so taking it to court could very well make that worse.

next time, don't do the crime if you can't do the time

[TagMor]

And an addmitance to a law enforcement officer is sufficient proof for conviction... it happens a lot with "excited utterence" cases (not the same that applies here, but still is enough to convict).

i just googled "excited utterence".. all i see is that it is admissable as evidence.. just like anything else you say to a cop.. It is not proof.. And if is the only form of evidence the prosecution will fail.. everytime.. The idea that a court verdict could be solely based on what a cop claims he heard is rediculus and would result in a very scary world... That is why they have video/tape recorders in teh interview rooms.

Regarding car searches:
From watching "COPS" it seems that the police have an extensive list of possible drug paraphernalia.. Like "oh there is a mcdonalds straw on the floor of your car.. PLEASE GET OUT OF THE CAR SIR".. is kinda fucked

[Squeezer]

Story Time

Last Saturday my roommate got busted for "writing" by the local police. They issued him a ticket for 3rd degree malicious mischief and we thought that was it.

Before I continue on, let me say that my friend is an art student and has been tagging the city for about six months. It's his thing. I don't really get it but the kid is a good artist and he liked it.

Well last Tuesday we get a buzz in our apartment all of the sudden and answer it to find out that there are two policeman outside. We live on the fourth floor, so my friend buzzes them up and we go on a mad dash to hide our Gravity Bong, his artwork and anything else that might be incriminating. About a minute and a half later they knock on the door and I answer it, identify myself as the roommate and shake their hands. My friend comes to the door and from where I'm standing down the hall (ironically enough playing GTA) I can hear them talking outside.

I hear one of the cops say, "can we come in?" My friend replied with, "I don't think so." The cop replied, "It'll only take a minute," and walked right in. Immediately an alarm goes off in my head but I know my friend is already fucked and if we let them in to see the art work we couldn't hide then they wont go searching through other stuff and hopefully be satisfied.

The cop walks over to our table and starts thumbing through my friend's sketch books and then states that he's going to have to take them. At this point, I speak up and say, "officer I don't mean to interfere, but that's not legal of you to take those." My friend didn't offer them to him, yet he still picked the books off the table, open them, and then decide to take them.

He then says, "Well they're evidence so we can either take them now or wait here for a warrant and search the whole place." My friend looked at me and it was clear that he didn't want me to push it, so I let him take the books figuring that I could refute it in court if necessary (I will be). I know for a fact that warrants aren't instant and I've challenged that before (once when I got a speeding ticket and officer said he would get the dogs to tear up my car if I didn't let him search it. I still said no.) but I let it go.

The Officer that took the books then tells his partner to get the camera because they need to take photos of the stuff he's drawn on clothing and his dresser. I speak up and say, "absolutely not, you can't photograph anything we have!" The officer not taking pictures then asks me to come outside. We step out the door and he confronts me by saying that I could be charged with aiding and abetting because I knew about his activities despite never participating (I can't draw to save my life). He says he can take me in cuffs with my friend, who's already going to be arrested, or I can cooperate and they wont even mention me. I decided to shut my mouth.

A few minutes later they collect some other stuff he's drawn on and say that since he was such a good sport they wont cuff him but that he's still under arrest. Apparently at the courthouse they had 3 case files full of his various work and they told him if he signed pics of his work then they wouldn't keep him overnight. He signed 6 photos and they let him go.

He has an attorney now and I'm not allowed to speak to him about the situation (which really sucks because it has a tendency to come up and it's not like I can get around talking to him), and I have a feeling they're going to push for a plea bargain. As it stands he'll be charged with malicious mischief in the second degree which is a felony charge. The lawyer is going to take it to court if the DA's office is stubborn and I'll likely take the stand to talk about what happened. Really shitty situation but I'm glad they didn't tear my room apart.

My question for Stark, who seems pretty knowledgeable on the topic, is: If I choose to testify can they later tie an aiding and abetting charge given my testimony? If so should I be seeking council as well?

The cop also came back again the next day but I was home alone and gave him the polite equivalent of, "fuck off and I know what you did was illegal." My buddy had his arraignment Friday, but it could be a couple of months before the charges actually reach a court (if they aren't able to strike a deal and get the felony dropped). I'll testify to exactly what I said here. Does he have a good chance of getting the felony dropped even though he signed the pictures (admittance of guilt)?

[Ward]

You and your buddies are a horde of asshats, and you asking the pilots of Trench Wars for a "legal advice" only shows it further. Life is such that when you're a dumbass, you have to pay the price. You've been busted and you have nothing to argue against even though you may have covered someone else. But those poor idiots are still paying for you, so my question to you is why the hell do you care!? Although it may be right for you to be concerned, since you clearly aren't the most respected between your pals seeing how you get snitched on.

[TagMor]

Yeh your friend got raped in the ass by two filthy pigs.. the majority of cops are sub-human. They will destroy someones entire future over something as petty as graffiti and wont think twice about it... funny enough their training shares the same basic structure as military...
And they love using fear.. like by threatening you with "aiding and abetting".. but in reality they can charge you with whatever they want.. doesnt mean jackshit until it is heard by a court.. your first words after this should have been "ok but i wish my attorney to be present and i will be filing an official complaint for harassment and abuse of power"
But then they should never have been allowed in the building to begin with..
Basically your story is a good example of cop mentality.. they would arrest every single living person if they could.. they will "find" crime where there is none.. and are sly as fuck... they will present themselves as caring or friendly only to get what they want..
The best way to deal with cops is to consider them as dogs and u a bleeding lamb.. refuse any and all "requests" until you are physically unable to.. believe it or not but they will actually respect you more for doing this... a person who gives permission for a cop to do anything is a schmuck and they know it.

oh also, phone cameras are a cops bain of existance... get that fucker out everytime one even comes near you.

[Jeenyuss]

jerome i like reading your stories.

squeezey: sucks dude, my bro got caught tagging shit a long time ago. saskatoon has one of the biggest dick cops ever in terms of graffiti. he's seriously fucked in the head and up the ass. wish your friend would've had his head on straight to prevent such police shenanigans.

[stark]

My question for Stark, who seems pretty knowledgeable on the topic, is: If I choose to testify can they later tie an aiding and abetting charge given my testimony? If so should I be seeking council as well?

The cop also came back again the next day but I was home alone and gave him the polite equivalent of, "fuck off and I know what you did was illegal." My buddy had his arraignment Friday, but it could be a couple of months before the charges actually reach a court (if they aren't able to strike a deal and get the felony dropped). I'll testify to exactly what I said here. Does he have a good chance of getting the felony dropped even though he signed the pictures (admittance of guilt)?

A similar thing happened to my friends who got busted with ecstasy and special k. Officers came to the door, without a warrant, and someone who didn't live there opened the door and the officers came in. They claimed to smell weed, and called a drug dog and found the x and k (never did find the weed). The cops didn't have a warrant, and that might have gotten it thrown out in court, however on the chance that it didn't because of the "smell of marijuana" and the possibility of the drugs being destroyed before the cops returned with a warrant could have led to exigent circumstances allowing them to enter upon "smelling marijuana," and therefor didn't want to risk losing at trial and pleaded down. He ended up going to jail for 4 months (6 months sentence, 1/3 off for good behavior).. Oh and my buddy took criminal justice and high school with me, and he knew (like in Jerome's case) that if no one took responsibility, everyone who lived there would be arrested and charged with the same crime.

Anyways, back on topic, this isn't the same, to say the least. The police came in without being allowed in (without a warrant, they cannot step foot in your house). Now, let's say that your friend said "sure, come in". Without a warrant, their is something what is referred to the "plain view doctrine," where anything that is in plain view can be admissable into court as evidence. That means, any opening of a notebook does not fall into plain view.

There was a court case, don't feel like looking it up, where the cops were let into a house and saw a big sterio system, thought it looked suspicious, and walked over and moved it away from the wall to look at the serial number and check to see if it was reported stolen. It was, and came back with a warrant. However, the court ruled that did not fall in the plain view doctrine because they had to move it to see the serial and therefor was not in plain view.


Another thing, is that you should have let them get the warrant. Warrants are very specific in what they can look for and what they cannot take. For example, if they wanted the sketch books, it would have to say so on the warrant. If they found your g-bong, it would be fruit from the poisonous tree and they wouldn't be able to hold it against you in court.

They can't charge you for aiding and abedding or anything like that if you were asked to testify. You have a right to not incriminate yourself when you're on the stand (pleading the 5th).


A (potential) problem with this is that a police officer's word is generally taken in as being more truthful then a couple of kids. So if they're corrupt or something and lie under oath, it'll be your words versus theirs-- and you can see who the jury's more-than-likely going to believe.

All things considered, there will be a decent offer on the table from the DA... However, since it's a felony charge, I believe there'll still be some jail time. The thing is, trials can be a great risk (if my buddy who was in county jail for 4 months went to trial and lost, he would have been in state prison for 1-3 years), so it's a tough decision for him and his lawyer to make.


Anyways, to answer your question more, if you're called to testify (which I'm sure you will be if it goes to trial), you'll be meeting with your buddy's lawyer before the actual trial to go over facts and what not... so he can answer any questions in regard to that. But, you do have a right to not incriminate yourself so you should be golden, regardless.

[Vykromond]

Yeh your friend got raped in the ass by two filthy pigs.. the majority of cops are sub-human. They will destroy someones entire future over something as petty as graffiti and wont think twice about it... funny enough their training shares the same basic structure as military...
And they love using fear.. like by threatening you with "aiding and abetting".. but in reality they can charge you with whatever they want.. doesnt mean jackshit until it is heard by a court.. your first words after this should have been "ok but i wish my attorney to be present and i will be filing an official complaint for harassment and abuse of power"
But then they should never have been allowed in the building to begin with..
Basically your story is a good example of cop mentality.. they would arrest every single living person if they could.. they will "find" crime where there is none.. and are sly as fuck... they will present themselves as caring or friendly only to get what they want..
The best way to deal with cops is to consider them as dogs and u a bleeding lamb.. refuse any and all "requests" until you are physically unable to.. believe it or not but they will actually respect you more for doing this... a person who gives permission for a cop to do anything is a schmuck and they know it.

oh also, phone cameras are a cops bain of existance... get that fucker out everytime one even comes near you.

You're like the Tone of punks. You have one seriously messed up worldview, every post is like another step down the spiral of crazy.

Squeezer: Like Stark said, there's pretty much no way you can pick up a charge from testifying- if they're going to charge you they will do it independently of whether or not you testify at your buddy's trial. Remember your 5th amendment rights.

[TagMor]

You're like the Tone of punks. You have one seriously messed up worldview, every post is like another step down the spiral of crazy.

wtf does 'Tone of punks' mean? I am critical of the police culture so I am a punk?.. maybe it is a product of anonymous communication but can you please try to think outside of stereotypes.. I am a person. and I personally know many police, lawyers and even a QC who would agree so please stfu.. you obviously know fuckall about this world and get your false impressions from shit like CSI..
And you have teh nerve to call me crazy?.. because i actually have an opinion.. WTF do you contribute?.. your recent posts is like a stroll down submissive lane.. All you do is condemn anything outside of your "own" very bland, grain-fed perception of the world and follow it up with the odd mention of a "dong".

[Jerome Scuggs]

You and your buddies are a horde of asshats, and you asking the pilots of Trench Wars for a "legal advice" only shows it further. Life is such that when you're a dumbass, you have to pay the price. You've been busted and you have nothing to argue against even though you may have covered someone else. But those poor idiots are still paying for you, so my question to you is why the hell do you care!? Although it may be right for you to be concerned, since you clearly aren't the most respected between your pals seeing how you get snitched on.

I care because I'm not a dumbass. I care because I'd like to have a clean record.

I didn't get snitched on. I voluntarily took the ticket.

As for everyone else:

Yeah, I'll probably wind up paying it off and waiting out the six months. I don't think it will be a problem, I'll just have to be more careful when I leave Louisiana. I don't really worry about getting in trouble in my city... I've never received a ticket, but I've been pulled over 4 times when I've been out of town:

-Disturbing the Peace (blasting my subwoofers at 3am in Baton Rouge, cops let me off because I my hot girlfriend was in the car and we were almost back to her house)
-Driving without headlights (I was drunk/high so I let my friend drive, but he forgot to turn on my headlights. It was awkward - I was wearing a belt made out of spent ammo cases and we had a halloween prop in the back, a decapitated corpse, in a seatbelt.)
-Speeding (I was in Dallas, on acid. Cop pulled me over, said I was going 35 in a school zone for which the limit was 15. Ironically, I had to remind him that it was Saturday, and so the speed limit was, in fact, 35. I'm still amazed at this one)
-Loitering (I was in Baton Rouge at a park at night, had a bong behind my seat in a gym bag, an ounce in my pocket, and an Airsoft M-16 replica beside me. Apparently the park closed at sunset, which I didn't know, so I'm waiting for my friend and the cop pulls in, walks up to the window. He immediately sees what appears to be a machine gun, so he snatches it, tells me I could have been shot. He then searches my truck and searches me on my hood, but I guess he was looking for like... hard drugs or weapons or something, because he didn't look at the gym bag and thank GOD I had a pack of smokes in my pocket with the ounce - he felt the box instead of the baggie. This one had me so terrified I stopped 'ridin dirty' for quite a few months, and now I don't carry any paraphernalia, and I don't hold anything more than a half-ounce)

My rule of thumb for cops: Be nice and even act a little intimidated. These days I don't put my faith in the law, because for every rule there's fifty exceptions that can be made. I hate it.

[Capital Knockers]

Heya Jerome, mad blasted titty twisting situation you had yourself in there, and aptly handled. As far as fighting the charge goes, unless you can't afford it - just pay it off. It's so much hassle otherwise. If it was something more serious, yeah, fight until you're throat is raw. I've gotten a few random tickets, no biggie.

[Zerzera]

I care because I'm not a dumbass. I care because I'd like to have a clean record.

You don't want your future employer to know of your contemptible behavior, yet you are not planning on stopping. What is it that you are afraid of? That when you want to enter the workforce you will not find anyone that will take you for what you are worth, regardless of your weakness?
Going through the memories I have of your posts, you do nothing but -willingly- break the laws of your country on this matter, but you will not man up when you get caught.
You don't want the officer to do his work so that you can keep up appearances?

You are a sellout and a hypocrite.

[Pandagirl!]

Yea, and I'm sure you've never broken a law. And neither has anyone else who is judging Jerome for breaking the law.

A misdemeanor won't show up for employers anyway, at least that's what I was told. 22 of my friends, ages 17-18, were arrested for underage consumption and/or possession. They were told that it would disappear in 6 months and it wouldn't show up when applying for a job or anything because it wasn't a felony. I don't know if it works the same way in Louisiana or not though.

If I were you, just take the ticket, have your friends pay for it, and be done with it. All things considered, there wasn't that much harm done. I don't think it'd be worth it to go to court and possibly waste money, hurt yourself more, or hurt your friends.