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John McCain vs Barack Obama Mega-Politic-Thread of super fun awesomeness.

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  • I am directing the following sort-of-sarcastic comments at the editorial staff of the NYTimes

    "Why? Because so many of them have spent so much time studying the Great Depression and trying to figure out how to react more effectively if things turn really bad again. Take last week, for example."
    I'd rather not have a Fed that, apparently, is run alot like FEMA - just hope you get it right the next time!

    "I used to give a lecture explaining that the Great Depression could never happen now because of the regulations that emerged from that crisis,” said Barry Eichengreen, an economist at the University of California at Berkeley.
    So, basically he's saying that what he believes about economics is wrong...

    “But we’re learning that there is a shadow banking system, of hedge funds and investment banks, that are outside of those safety nets. What happened to Bear Stearns last week looked a lot like a 19th-century run on the bank. And that’s why the Fed reacted so quickly."
    ...and the culprit? Shadow banking systems?

    Indeed, when the government moved last weekend to help save Bear Stearns, the fifth-largest securities firm on Wall Street, from bankruptcy, policy makers were motivated by concerns that the investment bank’s failure could start a chain reaction of collapses at other investment houses. Stopping those dominoes was such a priority that the Federal Reserve helped broker the sale of Bear Stearns to its rival JPMorgan Chase.
    And so if what the author of this article is saying is an accurate description of the problem and its solution, then this paragraph would be correct.

    A century ago, such government hustle would have been unthinkable.
    So would an 11-13% approval rating.

    Even the distinction between a recession (a significant decline in economic activity that lasts more than a few months) and a depression (a decline that is much longer and deeper) didn’t really matter, because turmoil in the economy was often taken for granted.
    ??? ???

    Between 1857 and 1929, while regulators largely stood idle, the American economy swung through 19 national boom-and-bust gyrations that sometimes threatened to wipe out whole industries within months.
    I've already taken a slightly more extensive look at the economic period described here, so I'll skip that and go to this: pray tell, what industries? He's talking about the period between the Civil War and World War 1. To get at what I'm saying - look at the weapons, clothes, machines, technology, culture itself during those two wars. Is this guy lamenting the fact that horses were replaced by cars? That the whaling industry took a massive hit after oil and natural gas became widely deployed?

    But in the wake of the Great Depression, American policy makers began actively managing the economy with a handful of tools, including adjusting interest rates and using massive government spending to spur growth. Since 1945, there have only been 10 boom-and-bust cycles, most of them much shallower than earlier ones, and the unemployment rate has never topped 9.7 percent.

    Much of that stability, economic historians say, stems from reforms designed to calm consumers during downturns, like the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, which guarantees most checking and savings accounts up to $100,000 if a bank fails.
    Now we get to this quote, in context. I think the warrants of these claims are highly mitigated by the fact that in this case we DO have the luxury of hindsight.

    But as the Internet boom and recent housing bubble demonstrate, even relatively stable periods can be part of a cycle of extreme ups and downs. The prolonged expansion that just ended had an unusually long run of more than six years. As a result, some are speculating that the crash will be equally drawn out.
    Oh... but we were wrong about it being stable, after all! Which means... well, sorry folks, extreme ups and downs are just part of the cycle, it's not our fault. And that means that we were wrong about that recession - the economy will crash for six years!

    “The biggest difference with this recession is that it’s starting in the housing market,” said Victor Zarnowitz, an economist at the Conference Board who is also a member of the National Bureau of Economic Research’s business-cycle committee.
    "The biggest difference between Jerome Scuggs and every other human is, he is Jerome Scuggs."

    He's a member of the National Bureau of Economic Research's business-cycle committee. Tax money well-spent.

    For the first time in more than 50 years, the nation faces a broad risk “that people’s most important asset, their home, will lose value,” he said.
    No - for the first time in 50 years, noone can hot-potato the defaulted loans and soured mortgages anymore. Packaging and re-packing loans in order to put off the inevitable - until suddenly, someone looks at housing prices, and sees they've been on the rise - so in order to guarantee that the re-packaged loans would generate value, simply flood the housing market with easy capital, stimulate purchases, drive up prices.... essentially rigging the cards to get rid of debt.

    People don't value their homes as much as this guy thinks they do. The government was wagering on... an infinitely expanding housing market? Perhaps they were too far-sighted and didn't see the rise of the renting class, which has shifted the housing market - demand is now far more flexible, because people have alternatives that are economically feasible.

    Thankfully, the well-planned government expirement turned out as predicted.

    As homeowners see the value of their homes decline, they become more likely to delay purchases of the big items — like automobiles, electronics and home appliances — that are ballasts of the American economy. When those purchases decline, large manufacturing firms, suddenly short on funds, could begin laying off employees.
    But, if the government was serious about environmental reform - wouldn't those be industries that would see serious limits on their current activities anyways, inevitably crippling production or reducing workforce requirements?

    But this shows the author's short-sightedness. So GM subsidizes their losses with government money, padding them from slowly bleeding. And so instead of GM laying off small amounts of employees - or downsizing in other ways over time - they artificially maintained an unsustainable business strategy, and now waves of employees will be released into a market that, at the moment is not exactly ripe for employment. Had employees been slowly laid off, I'm sure many of them could have had ample time to find other jobs or careers.

    This is the government trying to enforce an artificial order upon spontaneous forces. By building an economic infrastructure dependent on certain industries to be "immortal", the government's wager was destined to go bad.

    Those workers, uncertain about the future, might in turn stop buying Starbucks lattes and movie tickets, and in a worst-case scenario, that could spur coffee shops and theaters to begin layoffs of their own.
    coffeeshops and theaters? Is this guy saying that government policy is, at the moment, focusing on saving the potentially volatile coffee and movie industries? I could use a loan...

    At least consumers will keep buying things they, you know, need to survive.

    Such a chain reaction was one reason unemployment during the Great Depression was so persistent and widespread.
    Coffeeshops and theaters losing business caused the Great Depression? I know this guy is obviously way more qualified than me... but... ???

    But today, say economists, fundamental changes make such contagion unlikely. For one thing, incomes are more stable. Many more Americans hold jobs in service sectors, like medicine or education. And more Americans work for the government, which is less inclined to fire people just because the economy turns gloomy.
    "Just because the economy turns gloomy?" How about... "just because they can't afford to stay in business?" or "just because they can't go into infinite debt to pay for anything?"

    Moreover, there are safety nets that can be traced to the Great Depression, like Social Security, unemployment benefits, food stamp programs. These “give people a sense of security even when they’re out of work,” said the Harvard economist Benjamin Friedman. “That establishes a floor for how panicked consumers become.”
    Wait... these programs were meant to... give people a warm feeling inside? While also serving to curb panic?

    Even if consumer confidence hit rock bottom, that most likely would not be enough, by itself, to cause a depression. For things to become really dire, the nation’s financial institutions would have to fail at the same time that unemployment began significantly rising. Only if banks suddenly closed, or it became impossible for companies to access short-term lines of credit, would things begin spiraling out of control.
    "Consumer confidence"... don't even get me started. How bizarre that the Clintons got away with pegging the 90's recession on "faltering consumer confidence", and people accepted this.
    NOSTALGIA IN THE WORST FASHION

    internet de la jerome

    because the internet | hazardous

    Comment


    • oh, woah. i somehow completely missed your other post, and it's actually pretty intense. this space reserved for later~
      NOSTALGIA IN THE WORST FASHION

      internet de la jerome

      because the internet | hazardous

      Comment


      • Before you reply, I acknowledge that the central difference between your views and my views (which coincide with but are not based on the views of the 'establishment' as it is) is that while I believe that a truly 'free' market simply cannot exist more than in small isolated examples (i.e. ebay) you believe that the free market would absolutely work and any examples contrary are only because the 'full' ideal wasn't implemented.

        I base my views on the fact that I'm a scientist and I've never seen any good example of a perfect free market working. (I've also never seen any examples of a perfectly good planned economy working either in case you're wondering) Aside from various papers which talk about the theory of it all, there are no real life examples or experiments which I know of that show off how great a completely government-free free market would work. Even the absolute most capitalist society in the world, Hong Kong, is not immue from some aspects of 'big government' and regulations.

        The closest example I can see to the true 'free market' is simply biological systems and evolution itself, which is basically a free for all, where the winner wins by consequence.

        I believe the hybrid model that we have now is probably the best bet, allowing capitalism to thrive albeit with real world limits, because unfettered capitalism may be dangerous, as evolution has shown us how organisms can destroy their environments and lead to massive die offs or even extinction.

        I don't think either way these views of ours will change much on these forums, and perhaps over many years one of us or both of us may slightly change our views as we see more of the world (you yourself proudly state you swung from crazy communist left-wing to crazy capitalist extreme right-wing in a few years).


        So I guess the real point of my asking a few posts up in the first place before I got carried away, was what is the actual hard data on your proofs? It's easy to talk about rhetoric, and even easier to link me to different blogs that support your cause. But where is the hard number data that I can easily access and digest?

        I admit I'm not much of an economist and my knowledge of the economy while above the normal person is not that of an expert. I had the chart in the article I looked at and accepted it, much like how you may accept random facts about healthcare which I would probably not even take seriously. So please give me the hard data. Why does that article say there were more boom and bust cycles, and why do you say it's the other way around? Why is the article so completely wrong, and where are you getting your facts from?
        Epinephrine's History of Trench Wars:
        www.geocities.com/epinephrine.rm

        My anime blog:
        www.animeslice.com

        Comment


        • I just wanted to add that I believe Obama is the anti-christ, BUT I also believe he's the lesser of the two evils. He gets my vote. December 21, 2012, here we come!

          Comment


          • holy mother walls of text,


            you two not having forum avatars doesn't help much either
            it makes me sick when i think of it, all my heroes could not live with it so i hope you rest in peace cause with us you never did

            Comment


            • listen motherfuckers, get avatars or I will think you are all Epi and then I will most likely just ignore you.
              Originally posted by Jeenyuss
              sometimes i thrust my hips so my flaccid dick slaps my stomach, then my taint, then my stomach, then my taint. i like the sound.

              Comment


              • I think it's the first time ever that a presidental canidate has pussed out on a presidental debate. I was looking forward to friday. Obama 2 Mccain -3
                Last edited by Soul Survivor; 09-25-2008, 08:49 AM.
                OBama/Biden 08

                Comment


                • Heh, I hate to procrastinate so much, but here's the thing - thanks to you guys, seriously, I've learned so much about so much and you guys might notice this too - you probably know a fuckton more than alot of people you usually deal with about current affairs. And suddenly these people are becoming aware of things that we've all been debating about (and in the process learning about), and they have questions.

                  I'll post this particular message because my subspace-facebook friends can verify it:

                  Ok, sooooo...I was watching TV tonight with my sister and we were about to watch David Blaine's "Dive of Death". We turn to that channel and there was Bush giving an address that we missed most of. So all I caught of it was "economic emergency" and some "plan" that was supposed to fix it and even make us a "stronger" economy. Also McCain is putting his campaigning on hold so the parties can come together and help out, but Obama is not because he believes they can do both at the same time. I was confused as shit because I've heard nothing about this until tonight and then I only caught a little. I figured if anyone would know about current economic problems it would be you, and I'm pretty nervous now. So please try to explain when you get the chance.
                  As you can tell, instead of spending my free time discussing, I now have to do this shit in real life - rant for hours and hours about all sorts of things. And it sucks because I'm not going to be able to use the word "anarchy"

                  But seriously, if you guys know people who have questions, the least you can do is educate people. That, more than anything, is so incredibly vital now that it's all you can do - release your ideas into the wild and see what spontaneous forces do with them. Might not save us this time but maybe next time things will happen differently and hey, that's all you can really hope for these days!
                  NOSTALGIA IN THE WORST FASHION

                  internet de la jerome

                  because the internet | hazardous

                  Comment


                  • I second this notion. Jerome I wish we could hang out and just bs. The whole world is looking at me and I'm just a fuckin normal ass kid. I feel like you are the only person on earth that understands what I'm going through and we've never even really talked... The quote bit in your sig perfectly sums up the last 6 months of my life. I'm just so tired dude, so damn tired. What do you guys reccomend I do because I could really use some advice on what to do next...
                    1:ikpt> this has become more entertaining than playing
                    1:lynnja> anything is more interesting than trenchwars
                    1:lynnja> have you just realised that
                    1:ph> this is not for amusement purposes, we are trying to save duel pasta from a life of misery and genital warts.

                    "The world is a wheel where everyone steals, and when we rise it's like strawberry fields."

                    Comment


                    • By the way I consider most of you guys to be better friends of mine than the friends I have in real life. If you guys haven't figured it out yet I'm that fucked up kid some people are talking about. I was watching ATL the other day and there was an above the influence commercial with me as the drugged out kid. How the hell am I suppose to get over shit like this. I just want to leave this country so bad.
                      1:ikpt> this has become more entertaining than playing
                      1:lynnja> anything is more interesting than trenchwars
                      1:lynnja> have you just realised that
                      1:ph> this is not for amusement purposes, we are trying to save duel pasta from a life of misery and genital warts.

                      "The world is a wheel where everyone steals, and when we rise it's like strawberry fields."

                      Comment


                      • My ex gf was a famous top model, I play the drums, and I've drunk way too much alcohol in my life. In hollywood's eyes that makes me king shit of the world right now or something, every damn artist in the country is talking about me and making videos. Man I fucking hate hollywood so bad, coming back to LA was the worst decision I've ever made in my life. I can't even watch TV anymore because I feel like every little thing I do no matter how minuscule echoes around the world.
                        1:ikpt> this has become more entertaining than playing
                        1:lynnja> anything is more interesting than trenchwars
                        1:lynnja> have you just realised that
                        1:ph> this is not for amusement purposes, we are trying to save duel pasta from a life of misery and genital warts.

                        "The world is a wheel where everyone steals, and when we rise it's like strawberry fields."

                        Comment


                        • Absurd shit. I didn't even realize that it was like this untill 3 or 4 days ago when I turned on the TV and was watching a T.I. music video. I can't believe I've been so oblivious to what's been going on around me for the last 3 months.
                          1:ikpt> this has become more entertaining than playing
                          1:lynnja> anything is more interesting than trenchwars
                          1:lynnja> have you just realised that
                          1:ph> this is not for amusement purposes, we are trying to save duel pasta from a life of misery and genital warts.

                          "The world is a wheel where everyone steals, and when we rise it's like strawberry fields."

                          Comment


                          • So yeah... I'm at my cousins house now in Rancho Cucamonga. It's chill if you guys don't want to reply. This is all just a bunch of stupid ass drama. I'm going to keep posting though because it's good for my mental health to just talk. Even if it's about nothing.
                            1:ikpt> this has become more entertaining than playing
                            1:lynnja> anything is more interesting than trenchwars
                            1:lynnja> have you just realised that
                            1:ph> this is not for amusement purposes, we are trying to save duel pasta from a life of misery and genital warts.

                            "The world is a wheel where everyone steals, and when we rise it's like strawberry fields."

                            Comment


                            • Fucking haters... it's so rediculous the way people act, especially in America. Anything at all costs for the limelight.
                              1:ikpt> this has become more entertaining than playing
                              1:lynnja> anything is more interesting than trenchwars
                              1:lynnja> have you just realised that
                              1:ph> this is not for amusement purposes, we are trying to save duel pasta from a life of misery and genital warts.

                              "The world is a wheel where everyone steals, and when we rise it's like strawberry fields."

                              Comment


                              • Everyone and their mom is a "rapper" now.
                                1:ikpt> this has become more entertaining than playing
                                1:lynnja> anything is more interesting than trenchwars
                                1:lynnja> have you just realised that
                                1:ph> this is not for amusement purposes, we are trying to save duel pasta from a life of misery and genital warts.

                                "The world is a wheel where everyone steals, and when we rise it's like strawberry fields."

                                Comment

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