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**FarScape** · 01-16-2009, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Epinephrine View Post

I think you're missing the real point of it all.

Israel is supposedly a western liberal democracy, with respect for human rights and all of that. It is by it's very existence SUPPOSED to be morally superior. Furthermore, considering Gaza is technically within the sovereign borders of Israel, this means that Israel has a responsibility to the people of Gaza. Gaza is not a separate country, but is nominally under the jurisdiction of Israel. Furthermore, Israel is actually claiming moral superiority as JUSTIFICATION for the war to the world and to it's own citizens (justification as in 'we're protecting ourselves from terrorists' 'israel exists because we cannot allow another holocaust to happen'), and as such should act accordingly. If it does not act as morally superior as it claims, then it is clearly at fault in the eyes of the world.

Secondly, regardless of what is done, I think most people agree that going in and causing so much havoc is in the long-term a bad idea because it's not going to cause peace any faster between Israel and the Palestinians.

BTW it's nice that Israel is being so nice and kind by letting aid in for a few hours a day and then.... destroying all that aid and an United Nations compound.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/571394

I am not missing it at all, I actually do believe this is the reason why you taking the trash about Israel here, since we are based on western ideology.
What funny is tho, is the fact that the prime minister of Turkey call to throw out Israel out of the UN. So basically, a guy who leads a country that fight and kill the Kurdish without mercy, and did genocide against the Armenians and never admit it, call to throw us out of the UN. I guess its another way to try getting into the EU...( lip service?

)
Maybe that's why no one single Muslim or self righteous European protested against the 16,000 civilians who died in Somalia last year. I guess Africa is just not a part of the world.

For your second part:
There is havoc for the past 8 years, good morning. we did talk or at least tried to get some kind of cease fire. Is my English not good enough for you to understand that they kept firing rockets almost daily during that 6 months of cease fire, without Israeli provocation or response?
I guess I said it again.

BTW it's nice that Israel is being so nice and kind by letting aid in for a few hours a day and then.... destroying all that aid and an United Nations compound.

If they are firing rockets on our cities from those UN structures, or trying to harm our soldiers who are inside there, from those buildings, so sorry, screw them.
Funny how he said in the article "There were militants operating ... in the area, but no militants or any firing from our compound".

Kinda biased, but I know for sure our army wont fire on the UN for the fun of it.

**Liquid Blue** · 01-16-2009, 02:18 PM

What funny is tho, is the fact that the prime minister of Turkey call to throw out Israel out of the UN. So basically, a guy who leads a country that fight and kill the Kurdish without mercy, and did genocide against the Armenians and never admit it, call to throw us out of the UN. I guess its another way to try getting into the EU...( lip service?

)
Maybe that's why no one single Muslim or self righteous European protested against the 16,000 civilians who died in Somalia last year. I guess Africa is just not a part of the world.

The Amernian Genocide occured in the early 1900's

I understand Turkey still acts like a douche and refuses to call it a genocide, but your post made it seem like the genocide just happened, and that the PM of Turkey oversaw it

which is incorrect

**FarScape** · 01-16-2009, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by Zerzera View Post

First you start comparing terrorism in Europe with that in Israel. Now I am only stating that Europe has had some terrorist activity, because Exalt claimed that our opinion is based on the fact that we have had no terrorist attacks at all. And you jump on it and say that Europe can't be compared with Israel? What can't I deny now?

We once lived beside a country that was destroyed by a war. We and our neighbors thought we had to punish them as hard as we could. After all they were our enemies. Our punishment caused instability inside the country, because of a destroyed economy, shortages, unemployment and hurt pride.
This allowed populists to gain support and because of the chaos and anarchy allowed any fascist party to beat down opposition and become ruler.
I just see parallels with what happened in Gaza, and I don't think these people are much different from you and me. Do you?

Who exactly is punishing them? they get million of dollars, aid and everything they need to live by Israel. Why we need to supply power and fuel to support their rockets industry?
Their Arab brothers also closed the border in the south since Hamas killed and destroyed all the other factions in there. They could also supply them with fuel and food for the people, but I guess Egypt also enjoy from this situation.
By the way, why wont you continue your story? How did that country you are neighbor with is now democrat and advanced with liberal laws and pluralism?
Didn't you destroy it again, killed millions, but this time instead of trusting those idiots to get with themselves, United State got in and actually educated them, and cleared all the remaining Nazis who were left?
It's exactly what we should do in Gaza (destroy Hamas, not killing millions :-P), but it wont happen because the world is crap. Hamas cleared that if any international force will come to keep the peace, let the aid come to the people and probably deliver better education, they will see it as "occupation force that we will fight against".

Originally posted by Zerzera View Post

No, I want you to annihilate the Palestinians like they want to annihilate you, because that's a better solution.

Yeah, I assumed you have no clue for better solution. If someone will throw a rock on your face, what will you do? Try to speak with him? good. What if he will do it again after you speak with him?
If you are not an idiot, you will probably:

1) Run.
2) Fight back to make him stop.

So, Israel don't have the first option. You know why? Because unlike the Palestinians, we are not surrounded by "brothers".
(but its probably another propaganda for you, after all, Its not like Germany and Belgium is pushing you out unto the sea).

Originally posted by Zerzera View Post

Because you didn't start a thread. I seen a documentary about the border of Israel there two years ago. And I agree it was an unlivable situation there, but what do you want? They will always be your enemies the way you both are on it now. Do you want to clean out the whole Gaza strip? Because the situation now only raises new fundamentalists. Eight years is nothing compared to how long this conflict will drag on.

The only bad thing is the fact that we wont be able to destroy Hamas completely and establish some government with wits over there.
Honestly? I do not know how we are going to have peace with Gaza strip and the West bank as one Palestinian country, and Israel between.
This whole situation started since 1967. We did the mistake for not returning the Sinai peninsula with Gaza Strip for Egypt.

You are wrong by saying that they will hate us more for the reason of this attack. Japan do not hate U.S more after those atomic bombs. The nations in Europe, after destroying each other, are kinda united today.
Palestinians hate us because that's what they are teaching them, to hate Israel.
TODAY fundamentalists control Gaza, destroying any voices that oppose them. If we had support to remove them from control completely, Gaza could only benefit from that.
Oh and by the way, you need to understand that the people there are built by extended families and clans. They are not civilized like Europeans are, and during the Hamas rule, trust me that they didn't got any better (well, they teach on the tv that the Jews are pigs and apes that should be killed, remind me some history lessons).

Originally posted by Zerzera View Post

6000 is the highest estimate, but compare that to the ethnic cleansing and the Srebenica massacre the years prior to that war. I wouldn't have agreed to that war and I wouldn't agree to a UN campaign in Israel either when you would clean out the Gaza strip, just an observing mission so that war criminals can be brought to justice.

Didn't quiet understand you, but:
Latest QassamCount Updates
9:25pm: 3 additional Hamas rockets hit Israel. Total today: 33. Total since the year 2000: 8706

It's enough reason for the majority of Israelis to want make it stop. Since it never stopped with diplomacy (as I said, they kept firing during the cease fire without response for Israel), and since nobody give other solutions for us, our country and army is obliged to defend the people.

R1pp3r:

Yeah well you could argue what he stands for or has written instead of telling me he’s extreme and by making up some bogus facts. I already mentioned he’s a somewhat dissident voice in bloodthirsty Israel. Did you even read the article?

Don't be a joke o.k? :-P
Even his few left party friends who are supporting is work, did criticized him and canceled every shit he wrote there, so sit down boy.

**FarScape** · 01-16-2009, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Liquid Blue View Post

The Amernian Genocide occured in the early 1900's

I understand Turkey still acts like a douche and refuses to call it a genocide, but your post made it seem like the genocide just happened, and that the PM of Turkey oversaw it

which is incorrect

I didn't meant to do show it like it happened today, just as you said, remind that a country that sit in the UN doesn't acknowledge their deeds and actually put in jail people who criticize and raise the issue.

**Nycle** · 01-16-2009, 03:50 PM

The US and Israel just signed an agreement which states the US would help Israel to prevent the smuggling of weapons from Egypt to Hamas. Meanwhile, mediator Egypt has put a proposal on the table for a ceasefire for the duration of 1 year, and reputedly Hamas has agreed to its conditions while Israel is still studying the proposal. Some say this could finally result in the end of the war and a durable ceasefire from both sides.

Call me short sighted, but couldn't this have happened before the offensive? According to Israel, they destroyed about 60-70% of the supply tunnels that are used by Hamas. I understand the need for these tunnels to be destroyed, but why didn't they just leave it at that? Instead they caused massive havoc throughout one of the most densely populated area's on the planet, where any strike is bound to hit civillians no matter with how much precision they are done.

We'll just have to wait and see what will happen with the agreement and the proposal now. Meanwhile, the BBC, as usual, has been putting together an excellent background website here. For those who are interested and have called Hamas a plain pile of shit so far (which they are, in part), you can find an objective breakdown as to what they are and do here.

**DankNuggets** · 01-16-2009, 04:08 PM

I think what we're seeing here (ITT) is just human nature. Given a conflict where both sides are suffering, it's natural for people to side with them. Don't be so surprised when people side with Israel, because it's historically what's happened. If anything, I'm kind of surprised that so many people are choosing to not pick sides, a luxury you'll remember Farscape doesn't have. It's no secret, that in general, people (at least Americans) are more sympathetic to Israel then Palestine.

They may be wrong this time, but that doesn't mean we just flip/flop on our allies. We might not support them, but we sure as hell are not going to support their enemies. The United States rarely sits back and doesn't pick a side. At some point, you'll have to pick one, because they can't both win. When they won't compromise, there's no way for both of them to win by definition. As a person, we can stay completely neutral, fully ignorant of what is or isn't going on in the streets. However, a good many are still inclined to feel compassion, and it's much easier for some to feel it for one side and blame the other than to blame both of them and sit high and dry at home.

Because there are obviously consequences if you don't pick a side down there, look at the UN aid workers. If you're removed from the conflict, take the moral high ground and be thankful. If it's at your back door, self preservation comes to mind..

**R1pp3r** · 01-16-2009, 09:01 PM