Hamas and Israel

[Liquid Blue]

Why would you ever use the word facetious?

Because it's a word that describes the tone of his post?

[Cops]

I say 'Canadian' because Canada's way is dialogue and for people to get along (see Quebec). If you truly think that there's no way that they can ever co-exist, then I don't see how a two-state solution could work either, with the Palestinians being split into two by Israel on either side.

Really? You're going to use Quebec in a discussion about Israel and Palenstine?

My highlighted 'Canadian' option, is merely a long-term goal. Obviously no one is 'fucking retarded' enough (to use your words) to suddenly open the borders right now, and sing kumbaya and so on. That would be ridiculous. But it would be a goal to work towards. At some point, whether there is a one-state or a two-state solution, both sides will have to work together, will have borders open to travel, and will accept eachother's existence. It would not do Israel good to close off the West Bank and Gaza for all time and never talk to these people again, and it would merely just be another pretext for an outright war in the future.

Excuse me for me being pessimistic, but Israel and Palestine aren't ready to accept each others existence.

If we take what you say to be true, that never, ever, ever will the two sides ever live together (which also implies side-by-side unless you think they will just build an even bigger wall and never talk to eachother even though they are neighbors) the 'horrible' option is really the ONLY way. Personally I'm more optimistic than that.

I think they can find peace, just not in the next ten to fifteen. The best they allow themselves to have is a shady cease fire agreement that is sure to be broken.

[Cops]

Then why are you saying America is sick of playing the world's super-cop? It's as if the US is merely doing this to keep other nations 'safe' or whatever, when the real reason behind it is because they feel like it's in their best interest as well. You don't have to make it look as if the rest of the world is 'using' the US purely out of laziness or whatever, when the US is choosing to do what they do themselves.

I've noticed that even Conservatives have seen the downside to getting involved in every single problem in the world. I think the west is guilty of relying too much on America, even Canada is dependant on America. My problem is with people who condemn America (foolishly) and then expect them to do something. Placing blame on America has to be done very carefully, so that you do not blame the people who were helpless at the hands of a radical government. I understand you're not one of those people who blames Iraq on the American people, there's a certain level of helplessness people have felt over the past several years.

This is bullshit. I'd like to call myself one of the more pro-Americans even though I may not sound like that and I will recognize right now that the US has done a lot of good stuff, and my country would possibly not have been as free as it is today if it weren't for American (and in my country, Canadian as well) intervention during WW2. That, and a lot more. The thing is that all the good things are taken for granted and are easily 'forgotten' as such, it's a bitch but that's how it works, people will only stress the negative and wrong side. But don't think that people have completely forgotten about every good thing the US has done when they are, according to you, "downplaying the American public as stupid, arrogant, and idiotic."

Point taken, and I appreciate what you said about Canada and America. I'm not ashamed of the Canadian soldiers lost in Europe, I'm downright proud that we fought alongside our allies and helped defend freedom.

It's so easy to put this in a perspective of the 'hypocritical' European nations who talk a lot but do nothing. But you seem to forget that no single European country is powerful enough to get anything done in practice. It's not because they're not willing enough, for practical reasons they just can't intervene simply because they lack the strength and unification that the US possesses. Added to that, Israel would never accept European military intervention whereas the ties between the US and Israel are extremely strong and Israel is far more likely to accept what the US would advise them. To sum it up, no one is asking the US to do anything and no one can oblige them to do so, but realistically they're the only one that can put a stop to this sooner rather than later if they wanted to. Just make sure you don't turn it into the direction of "see, the US has to do all the work again when everyone does nothing and sits by".

I understand that European countries are small and that Israel's council lies in America. I can understand that feeling of someone dismissing your importance or not taking you seriously. Canada is large in size but small in arms, thus we're not always taken as seriously as we deserve to be. I meant no disrespect to Europe or its countries, even if it came across as offensive.

Anyways, I completely agree with you that America's government is the only government that can actually convince Israel to back off a bit. Once again sorry if I sounded like other countries don't do anything and America does it all, that's clearly not true and sounds arrogant.

Oh and specifically for my country; they're talking in parliament about setting up an EU-sponsored police force in the Gaza strip. This plan will surely fail, but it's worth mentioning in response to your prediction of us sitting back and following the lead of the US. [Edit] Source: http://uk.reuters.com/article/featur...s/idUKL7730370

I'm going to go read the article, I'll tell you what I think.

edit: I think my problem is that i was judging this situation from a text-book point of view of they're both to blame and that's the end of it. People are starving and innocent people are dying, our first concern should be helping the helpless. I read the article and I think it's a good idea, however like you I don't think it'll actually work.

[Jerome Scuggs]

I am watching 24 for the first time ever and it is absolutely horrible

"we must fuck this guy up"
"no we follow the law here"
"but... he is a terrorist"
"oh ok.. just this once"

[Exalt]

I take it that you do not support the war in Iraq then? What the F do you think the US has been doing there. If you support that illegal war, then you have contradicted yourself...but then again your from Ohio...what would anyone expect.

Stop condemning US citizens for the war in Iraq already. 95% of the United States doesn't WANT to be in Iraq, and realize they were all lied to by president Bush. This isn't our fault nor is there anything at this point we can do, beside hope that Obama is different. The whole voting for Obama thing is because of the Iraq war and everyone being against it. I'm sorry, but only congress can do anything about Iraq at this point, not the normal citizen.

Everyone needs to ease up on that issue. The only ones that support the war are a small 10% minority of the military who are brainwashed anyways. I was in the military during the Iraq campaign, and I didn't like one bit of it, and I can attest that 99% of the people I knew in the US military didn't like it either.

And as for the Isreal/Palastinian conflict... none of this is new. This has been going on since 1000 BC... the only difference this time is that they are using bombs instead of swords... but civilian slaughter has never been anything different....

and also lets look at the fact that 90% of the civilians living in the gaza strip all support terrorism... they VOTED in Hamas, that should tell you enough about who they are as a people... its tragic but them dying is in a sense removing potential terrorists from being able to suicide bomb civilians of other nations

[404 Not Found]

Stop condemning US citizens for the war in Iraq already.

Ex...I was just pointing out as to what Paradise noted:

How the hell could i argue this AND be for the Iraq War? I was talking about the killing of innocent women and children BUT I'd be for Blackwater and whatever illegal or legal operations we are doing there, that makes sense. Are my responses so good that you really can't say anything or what? DISAGREE AT LEAST, MAKE THIS A SPORTING ARGUEMENT? NON? B)

My OH bashing comes from living there. Have you lived there? It's kind of like New Yorkers and Philadelphians always busting on NJ

I am not condemning US Citizens...just a choice few! Plus it makes for intersting banter. I actually have nothing against Paradise, nor do I have anything against many of who I argued with here...for example, I like Izor and seem to sometimes find middle ground in areas...I know we disagree often, but I appreciate his honesty, opinons even if we disagree. One thing I will say here is that I respect his service to this nation...Many people do not even give him that.

I even respect your Chicago loyalty!

[Exalt]

Ex...I was just pointing out as to what Paradise noted:

How the hell could i argue this AND be for the Iraq War? I was talking about the killing of innocent women and children BUT I'd be for Blackwater and whatever illegal or legal operations we are doing there, that makes sense. Are my responses so good that you really can't say anything or what? DISAGREE AT LEAST, MAKE THIS A SPORTING ARGUEMENT? NON? B)

My OH bashing comes from living there. Have you lived there? It's kind of like New Yorkers and Philadelphians always busting on NJ

I am not condemning US Citizens...just a choice few! Plus it makes for intersting banter. I actually have nothing against Paradise, nor do I have anything against many of who I argued with here...for example, I like Izor and seem to sometimes find middle ground in areas...I know we disagree often, but I appreciate his honesty, opinons even if we disagree. One thing I will say here is that I respect his service to this nation...Many people do not even give him that.

I even respect your Chicago loyalty!

lol don't worry, I used your statement more as a way of generalizing everyone's opinions that Americans WANT the Iraq war... this is not the case

I respect your Philly loyalty too, and everyone trashes the dirty jerz, lol I should know...I was stationed in Connecticut for years

the thing that really pisses me off is that we have people dying over in Iraq from roadside mines and suicide bombings etc etc, and 99% of the US troops over there DON'T want to be there...

the way the US privatizes universities, it makes them so expensive you either go into debt for half your working life or you join the military and get a small amount of leeway in that area.. and that's the main reason most join in the first place... the whole "you signed up for it" theory is more of a cop out for people to blame the soldiers instead of the government body controlling the military, the soldiers just do what they are told

[404 Not Found]

I have many friends serving overseas as well as friends and family with their kids serving. What pisses me off, and as you noted, "the roadside mines and suicide bombings" and the monies wasted on pathetic private elected officials (Dem and Rep) agendas that take away the funding that should have gone into better planning with the necessary equipment to fight and complete these military actions.

I am also for the men and women that come home when they take off that uniform and respect them and the jobs they have done. It's not the people I am pissed with, but rather the turning of heads in ignorance to those that served. The injured that return seem to get kicked to the side...something that has been inherit over the centuries with all our past governments.

Not to derail the thread...sorry. I don't want any war, but we are, and the support I have is for the soldier and not the government using them as pauns for political agendas and sideshows for photo op's and future history books.

[Epinephrine]

the whole "you signed up for it" theory is more of a cop out for people to blame the soldiers instead of the government body controlling the military, the soldiers just do what they are told

Stop condemning US citizens for the war in Iraq already. 95% of the United States doesn't WANT to be in Iraq, and realize they were all lied to by president Bush. This isn't our fault nor is there anything at this point we can do

I find it absolutely hilarious that someone who posts those two comments could go and turn around and post something like:

and also lets look at the fact that 90% of the civilians living in the gaza strip all support terrorism... they VOTED in Hamas, that should tell you enough about who they are as a people... its tragic but them dying is in a sense removing potential terrorists from being able to suicide bomb civilians of other nations

Absolutely hilarious. It's amazing how much of a hypocrite some people could be.

[kthx]

I find it absolutely hilarious that someone who posts those two comments could go and turn around and post something like:

Interesting, I find it funny that someone who could post something like this ^

Could turn around and post something like this. V

Absolutely hilarious.

[Squeezer]

Stop condemning US citizens for the war in Iraq already. 95% of the United States doesn't WANT to be in Iraq, and realize they were all lied to by president Bush. This isn't our fault nor is there anything at this point we can do, beside hope that Obama is different. The whole voting for Obama thing is because of the Iraq war and everyone being against it. I'm sorry, but only congress can do anything about Iraq at this point, not the normal citizen.

And what have our politicians and general citizenry done about this fact?

I'm as much to blame as everyone else, but we have let accountability fly out the window. No one has been motivated to stop the Iraq War or even the actions of the Bush Administration. How strongly do you think Americans feel about this issue when it really comes down to it?

[paradise!]

And what have our politicians and general citizenry done about this fact?

OH POLITICS.

But it is truly amazing how assassination companies like Blackwater can function overseas, use the name of the U.S., and kill innocent civilians because they "looked dangerous".

Because it's a word that describes the tone of his post?

Someone's using sarcasm

hint: it's not you or......you.

That makes no sense and contradicts itself.

How?.......is this including the e-sarcasm? I see no contradictions. DETAILS DETAILS.


PS: fuck izor, you're supposed to say you never agree with him.

[Exalt]

I find it absolutely hilarious that someone who posts those two comments could go and turn around and post something like:



Absolutely hilarious. It's amazing how much of a hypocrite some people could be.

how am I a hypocrite when its the truth? all i stated were facts

apparently you never served in the military epi or you would know better, fuckin hypocrite yourself for speaking about a subject you know nothing about first hand

[Kolar]

how am I a hypocrite when its the truth? all i stated were facts

A majority of Palestinians voted for Hamas (a terrorist organization which has killed thousands of civilians) and a majority of Americans voted for and approved of (at some point), the war in Iraq and the current Administration. To say that one is guilty while another isn't (the American public) is a contradiction.

Some personal responsibility has to rest with the people, but to believe absolutely one way or the other only invites the kind of acts the Jihadists and Neoconservatives have brought to the region. To believe that all the blame rests with them results in Gaza in its current state of shit or the WTC attacks. To believe entirely in the other direction and the cycle of violence, corruption and greed will continue.

[R1pp3r]

how am I a hypocrite when its the truth? all i stated were facts

apparently you never served in the military epi or you would know better, fuckin hypocrite yourself for speaking about a subject you know nothing about first hand

Yeah, I had a good laugh at the funny contradiction too Exalt. How can you possibly not see it yourself? Are you really that deranged or have you been talking to your good old army buddies and your church choir friends again? You are defending the American citizen by saying they were tricked and are completely powerless and at the same time you’re blaming the Palestinians for being able to put Hamas in power. Perhaps there is a bit of truth in your words though. However, that would mean the American people have less democratic power than the Palestinians.