Hamas and Israel

[Nycle]

I'm well aware of the fact that Hamas was democratically elected. Do you know why no one takes them seriously? Because they're a terrorist organization. I don't really give a flying fuck that Hamas was elected, they're still a terrible group of people.

I'm sorry dude, but an open and mature dialogue with Hamas? They respond with bombs and using civilian buildings to store military arms. This situation hasn't been solved by words, and I doubt it will anytime soon.

What do you think will happen if a foreign entity decides to totally overthrow a democratically elected government once and for all? How do you think the Palestinians would feel like if that were to happen? Not only will it be a serious damage to the stability of democracy but it will leave room for other organizations to take control and go by even more violent ways. You fail to see that Hamas, just like Fatah in those days, has gained a lot of support from the local people as a social movement who might temper its actions if it were recognized internationally and be treated seriously, just like Fatah. You can't really overthrow an organization if it has gained this kind of support amongst the locals. The fact is that the opposite has happened: everyone decided to mark it as purely a terrorist organization and sever all ties, and one famous social scientist (forgot his name) once said that once you start putting a label on people they will act like it. So how about we label them on equal terms and see what will happen next?

Just an estimate from the news yesterday evening, death tolls:

Israel: 5
Gaza: 550

I wonder how many innocent civillians have yet to die before this is over, I can hardly imagine Israel has some magical powers which allows them to seperate civillians from Hamas. This is handicapped David vs. Goliath, after all.

Meh, it may seem like I'm totally anti-Israel and love the Palestinians, but I feel like a lot of people are overly sympathetic to Israel. Even though pretty much everyone states in his posts that they aren't on either side, this is still the feeling I get. I just feel the need to provide a countervoice because it's no secret the Jewish lobby is pretty big in the West and especially in the US, something the Palestinians cannot use to their advantage.

[Displaced]

Wow 404 thats pretty harsh IMO, however I do understand where you are coming from.

As for the Fatah issue, people do care, but Fatah has seriously lost face in the eyes of the arab world, they are generally percieved as weak, and Mahmoud Abbas doesn't have the faith of the people behind him, he needs to "show strenght" to be able to get any kind of control of the gaza situation, but that just isn't going to happen.

The rockets and suicide bombs won't stop as long as gaza is occupied and as long as there is a Israeli presence in the area, no matter how much we want there to be peace, it just isn't feasible atm.

You bring up a good point regarding the inactivity of the neighbouring arab states, this is something that is causing major uproar in the local populous, people from allover the ME are generally fed up at the actions of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc, people do want their leaders to step up to Israel, but there just isn't any kind of "unity" in the arab world atm, everyone is looking out for numero uno, and are too scared to get involved.
I've been talking with people in the ME about the situation, and they don't feel that anything will happen in regards to the other countries in the ME until something more drastic happens, i.e. Israel trying to invade Mecca, but we all know that isn't going to happen, so noone is going to step in.

Hindsight is 20/20, but it'd be interesting to see how this would be atm if the French and British wouldve allowed for a unified arab league to be created instead of proverbially shitting all over it.

It's like 404 said, at least Israel isn't calling for the death of all Muslims. In this situation I'm prone to take Israel's side, they are surrounded by countries who want nothing more than to destroy them.

Not all muslims no, but as I said, Ehud Barak has called palestinians vermin who need to be eradicated from the face of the earth, thats still pretty harsh from their secretery of defence :turned:
Ditto their Foreign Affairs Minister Tzipi Livni said there is no humanitarian need in Gaza, bullshit much?

[Cops]

The Gang Solves the Israel Hamas crisis

[404 Not Found]

Are you serious? I'm not taking any side but how would you feel like if the grounds of where your ancestors lived were suddenly colonized with people who use passages from the Torah as a justification?

Is there not a similarity in the assertion of spreading and or the evangelical methods in spreading Christianity in our recent history?

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the....

Now, -- you are accused of heresy on three counts -- heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action -- *four* counts. Do you confess?



What about this slogan of History:

To suddenly be colonized with people who use a proclamation in the name of the King or Queen as a justification.

It's history...and history has a tendency to repeat itself.

The World should step in and disarm both sides; but that can't happen, part of the economy is hinged on selling arms to the world. We thrive as a population in the killing and exploiting of hatred at others. We have movies and books that are targeted to populations; video games gloryfying such things. Is it any surprise to anyone that this continues?

[Cops]

A Jerusalem open to everyone would be a wonderful way for the people in that region to lay roads to mutual understanding, but this all hinges on a hypothetical cease-fire, which seems to be a problem.

An open Jerusalem? Not in my lifetime.

Are you serious? I'm not taking any side but how would you feel like if the grounds of where your ancestors lived were suddenly colonized with people who use passages from the Torah as a justification?

And don't forget Hamas was democratically elected and is building schools, providing care and whatnot for both the rich and the poor when the rest of the world doesn't give a fuck about the Palestinians.

Having said that, maybe if the rest of the world stopped seeing Hamas as just plainly a terrorist pile of shit and started treating it more maturely and start a dialogue at an equal level it might finally temper its actions, because there is no justification for that at all, ever.

Hamas is way worse than Israel, so yeah I am pretty serious. Don't get me wrong Israel isn't innocent.

As far as your historical reference as to why they're so angry, it's probably important for you to remember that almost all parts of the world were colonized, and that humanity has been brutal, bloody, and ruthless. History's been a bitch to all of us, and it's more often than not an excuse for someone to kill someone. Palestine and Israel can either deal with with this by talking or by bombing each other, and since the latter of the two is generally how they want to deal with their problems then it will stay this way up until both countries make concessions.

I'm well aware of the fact that Hamas was democratically elected. Do you know why no one takes them seriously? Because they're a terrorist organization. I don't really give a flying fuck that Hamas was elected, they're still a terrible group of people.

I'm sorry dude, but an open and mature dialogue with Hamas? They respond with bombs and using civilian buildings to store military arms. This situation hasn't been solved by words, and I doubt it will anytime soon.

It's like 404 said, at least Israel isn't calling for the death of all Muslims. In this situation I'm prone to take Israel's side, they are surrounded by countries who want nothing more than to destroy them. Israel's in a tough spot, they've always been one of those damned if you do and damned if you don't countries. However, they haven't always made things easy for themselves.

[genocidal]

i pick the one where all muslims and jews die:cowboy:

[Kolar]

Israel isn't exactly playing fair though, they have had the borders to Gaza closed for how long? 6 months? almost 7? people were literally starving to death in Gaza, because Israel would not allow aid to pass into their "quarantined zone".

I think you're right on that, neither side wants peace and I think sometimes people are overly sympathetic to the Israelis but when you look at it the Palestinians had an opportunity to take part in a democratic process which would have moved the Middle East situation forward. And what did they do? Elect a terrorist organization bent on sowing destruction; spreading hatred, bigotry and and a backwards ideology of victimization and basically jihad. But the blockade wasn't the right way to eliminate Hamas, terrorist organizations will thrive under any situation, desperation only fuels their cause. But on the other side if they left the boarder wide open it would only make things easier for Hamas to murder civilians and I can't see their support from the Palestinians dropping because of that. I think the current conflict should attempt to remove Hamas and Fatah should take part in returning Gaza to "normal", and Israel should remove the blockade. As long as people aren't desperate for the necessities of life and are given some kind of respect as humans beings they most likely won't be taking up arms.

[Jerome Scuggs]

I'm not for or against either side, neither one is "right". I like the idea of a pre-1967 Israel plan offered by the Arab league, that Israel rejected.

A Jerusalem open to everyone would be a wonderful way for the people in that region to lay roads to mutual understanding, but this all hinges on a hypothetical cease-fire, which seems to be a problem.

[Nycle]

There have always been Jews living in the area once called Palestine prior to the state of Israel in 1947. The colonization remark you make is retarded...just as there are Christians in Israel too that pre-date the name Israel...or did they follow some tele-evangelist and moved to Israel in the 1970's?

Ok colonization may not have been the proper term. Indeed jews were living there since forever, but so have the Palestinians. I also didn't mean it in the pre-Israel historical context which you're talking about. When Israel was founded shortly after WWII in response to terrible anti-semitic movements elsewhere (mainly in Europe) which fueled Zionism, it's understandable that a lot of Jewish people started longing for an independent state and indeed they established one, but with a total disregard for the Palestinians that lived there as well. And they justify this with religious scriptures which claim to say that the holy land which incorporates area's in which a majority was Palestinian belongs to them and them alone, THAT is what I percieve as unjust. This may only play a marginal role in the wider Israeli-Arab conflict, but when we zoom in on Hamas this is one of their major "reasons" for doing the shit that they're doing.

[404 Not Found]

Are you serious? I'm not taking any side but how would you feel like if the grounds of where your ancestors lived were suddenly colonized with people who use passages from the Torah as a justification?

There have always been Jews living in the area once called Palestine prior to the state of Israel in 1947. The colonization remark you make is retarded...just as there are Christians in Israel too that pre-date the name Israel...or did they follow some tele-evangelist and moved to Israel in the 1970's?

I can see this in the U.S. from that perspective all the time. This was the land of the Native American Indians and all the colonizing Euro's came here and slaughtered the native peoples by murder and plague that outnumber the holocaust of WWII. This was also done in the colonizing of many African, South American & Asian Countries. This is not something new by any means when one considers the Western Culture & Governments.

Palestine had been divided for centuries as part of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria....the point is that this entire conflict and hatred between both sides is ridiculous and being fed by others not even native to the land on both sides be it Western or Arab coutries getting in the middle.

If relegion could be dropped by both sides, what would they be fighting about other than a countries name?

Maybe we can start terrorist organizations in Myanmar that want it to be known as Burma and have them fight for ?????

I would have a bit of respect for Hamas if they would stop calling for the death of all Jews and retract their mission and goal to do this.

[Nycle]

Hamas needs to get crushed, plain and simple.

Are you serious? I'm not taking any side but how would you feel like if the grounds of where your ancestors lived were suddenly colonized with people who use passages from the Torah as a justification?

And don't forget Hamas was democratically elected and is building schools, providing care and whatnot for both the rich and the poor when the rest of the world doesn't give a fuck about the Palestinians.

Having said that, maybe if the rest of the world stopped seeing Hamas as just plainly a terrorist pile of shit and started treating it more maturely and start a dialogue at an equal level it might finally temper its actions, because there is no justification for that at all, ever.

[404 Not Found]

I have friends that are Jewish and Muslim by religion and have no problem hanging out at my place or seeing a baseball game together or whatever. We have a common bond in that we are U.S. Citizens. Neither side, myself included, likes what is going on in the Middle-East, but we are not bent on killing each other because of a religious divide.

The thing that seems so odd to me is how nobody in the world gave a shit about Hamas killing its own people in the Fatah movement; when they killed so many innocent people under the suspicions of them being allied with Fatah or being an outright political party member of Fatah, yet all had been Palestinian. Palestinian against Palestinian…that doesn’t even bother many of the so called supportive neighboring Islamic countries it seems. Look at the assholes in Somalia. This is an Islamic country that is and has been a tool for the genocide of its own people for over a decade and yet none of the other neighboring Islamic countries intervene? What the fuck? Saudi Arabia just recently gets pissed about a tanker they own getting captured but has done little to nothing to help curb this neighbor; meanwhile China sends its navy to protect the area along with the European and U.S. navies.

The f’n people of who live in the surrounding countries should get off their asses and just get involved rather than have the West do everything for them and then be blamed for everything!

Why not ignore the Israeli’s and get the supposed like minded, by religion, allied countries to help in getting your country on its feet and producing a product for export other than more terrorists?

Fatah and Abbas are not having the problems that Hamas is having. Both sides politically (Israel & Hamas Gaza-Palestinians) will never see eye to eye. Why then does it seem that the government working on the behalf of its peoples "Fatah”, is not firing rockets into Israel and experiencing the same problems?

Sure Hamas can hide and use there own women and children as human shields to protect their cowardly asses...they have proven this time and time again. Hamas is hated by Israel obviously because they are hell bent on the annihilation of Israel and the Jews...not the Israeli Arabs or Christians...The Israeli Jews. I am sure they will be attacking the Christians next if they could eradicate all the Jews.

If the rockets and suicide bombs would just stop and the people would take the land they now own and make something of it, then perhaps peaceful relations would be established. But as long as you have a government that seeks the total annihilation of a countries people based upon a religion and occupation, then this will never end until one side kills off the other. It's a real shame that the West has to be so involved for both sides. Egypt is afraid to get involved due to the possibility of it sparking uprisings in their own country with the Jihads and ultra orthodox groups politically involved in its central government. Saudi Arabia seems to fund every terrorist group...at least the money trail always ends up there but they do nothing!

The entire thing is a sham...blame the Turks, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria, as they all too once held this supposed country as occupied land. This has been an ongoing problem and if it was not for the Brits giving the land to become the state of Israel after WWII, then it would possibly still be occupied land by another country.

Even if the Palestinian faction of Hamas was given all of Israel, these people in Hamas would not be happy until all that are not in the same belief as they would be considered infidels deserving to die. They are sub-human fuckwads IMHO with no regard to human life, otherwise why send a retarded child that does not know what is going on as a suicide bomber…why send your wives & children off to kill themselves this way? I said it before, but why don’t these leaders that preach suicide missions lead by example next time and do the world a favor and just drop dead. The peoples themselves on both sides would probably be happier to have peace than constant war and death one would think.

I can look at this from both sides and personally they both suck. Shouldn’t have given the Gaza or West Bank back to anyone and kept it for Israel and there would not have been this problem we see at the moment.

[Displaced]

Heres some perspective from the other side of the coin.

Timing, everyone knows, that Israel wants to wipe Palestine off the face of the earth. Ehud Barak called Palestinians vermin, which need to be eradicated...
Now is the perfect time to take over Gaza, and do as much damage as possible.

Egypt is pussy footing around, they don't want to be dragged into any kind of conflict with the west atm, they have bigger problems at home and can't risk it.
Iraq, who was one of the large pro Palestine supporters is now under US control, they won't act until someone in the US tells them otherwise.
Saudi Arabia, supports HAMAS financially, but they won't jeopardize their position with the US with any logistical support.

Basically, no one who in the past would "oppose" Israel is willing to take action, the US is still run by the Bush administration, who is very sympathetic to Israels "plight", and won't hinder any occupation.
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About the actual "occupation" of Gaza, yes, eradicating HAMAS is going to be tough, conventional armies always struggle vs guerilla warfare, which is basically whay HAMAS are trained in, they will hide among the civilian populous, they will "hide" in schools and hospitals, they will do whatever it takes and try to claim as many Israeli lives as possible.
However, don't forget that they are the elected "official" party of Palestine, and have a lot of support.

Israel isn't exactly playing fair though, they have had the borders to Gaza closed for how long? 6 months? almost 7? people were literally starving to death in Gaza, because Israel would not allow aid to pass into their "quarantined zone".

Desperation only feeds "terrorism".
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Now I personally don't condone either side of this battle, but it is a battle that will never end. There will never be peace.
Both sides feel victimized, both sides claim to be defending themselves, neither claim to be an agressor, the truth is that neither side wants peace, and neither side is willing to compromize.

Will be interesting to see how Obama handles the Gaza situation, will he be able to broker another cease fire, or does he even want to step in?

[Cops]

Hamas needs to get crushed, plain and simple.

[404 Not Found]

Hamas has said publicly and at least once a month to the world that they will not stop with the rocket attacks, suicide bombing and so on until there is no more Israel.

Fatah is not following the Hamas movement, in fact what happened to the Arab world when Hamas killed all the Fatah supporters in the full takeover in Gaza?

Hamas can hide like the cowards they are and use women, children and mentally challenged people to carry out the suicide bombings, as well as start firing rockets over the border minutes after a cease fire ended. I should have sympathy for Hamas? No f'n way. Oddly enough I read of how Hamas is demanding open borders still? So they can carry out what they call for daily in the killing and destruction of Israel? This is like inviting John Wayne Gacy to a Children’s party as a Clown w/o any parents in attendance or accepting a dinner invitation for two to Jeffrey Dahmers apartment.

I do feel sorry for the innocent people getting killed, but why would you hide your weapons in schools, hospitals and mosques? F'n cowards they are.

Maybe the entire debacle could be solved if everyone ordered a ShamWow from Vince?