Hamas and Israel

[FarScape]

I think I dont want to see dead people in my newspaper anymore.

Try mars.
But yeah, I wish I wouldn't hear about rockets falling on our cities and hopefully, I wish this whole situation will come to peace and quiet for us and for the innocent people there.

[Mantra-Slider]

I think I dont want to see dead people in my newspaper anymore.

[FarScape]

OH LOOK, our prime minister just declared that he will open an aid root into Gaza to help the humanitarian needs of the people.
We are such a terrorists...

I wonder if Hamas now, being so weak, will control it like it did before and wont give it the Palestinians that they represent. Or because our Army is now in control, it actually might be given to the people who are really hungry.

What do you think?

[FarScape]

6) Late 1800s Zionist movement decides that Jews unfairly treated in Europe, needs a new home

Actually, the Zionist movement didn't think at first about a land. The "unfairly treated" that you speak of, is about killing and pogrom of Jewish people in eastern Europe. Just a little fact that you forgot.

7) UK gives Uganda as a place for Zionists to move to, it is rejected

Again, a bit out of context.. After Kishinev pogrom, Herzl brought up the Uganda program that was given by the british. It was charter in the area that today is near kenya, and it was only temporary safe house for Jewish people from Europe, and a point where to establish Israel as a state in the land of Israel. That's how Theodor Herzl saw the things. The Zionist didn't accept it because in fact, the Jewish roots are related to the land of Israel, not Africa, and didn't want that way.
next.

8) Jews slowly emigrate to area now known as Israel en mass in 1900s
9) UK takes over Palestine from Ottoman Empire, Balfour declaration by Brits support Jewish homeland in Israel as move to weaken Arab control of area. Plan succeeds and Jewish soldiers help UK take over area

You forgot the masses of Arabs that emigrated in the Ottoman rule (130% increase). Jews emigrated because of those killings and anti-Semitic. Also, there was large Arab emigration during the British mandate... (they doubled their number in Israel in that time, now calling themselves of course, Palestinians.)
You also forgot that the British recognized the Zionists as the Jewish nationality movement in 1903, it was before Balfour declaration, and your saying that the declaration was to weak the Arab control is false (Arabs didn't control nothing here). It was given by the British government after Haim Weizman with the Zionist movement, asked for recognition that Israel is belong to the Jewish people. The declaration itself was very limited from what they asked, but it did say that we deserve "national home" on that land.

11) WW2

Don't skip that :-D
in WW2, the Arabs in Israel were divided by themselves. Also, Amin al Husseini, who was one of the leaders of the arabs in Israel, was promised by Hitler that he will destroy the Jewish roots after the war. The Arabs in that time did terror attack against Jewish people and against the British.

13) With problems of their own, and with an increasingly restless Arab population feeling threatened by the new immigrants, the UK is caught in a place it really doesn't want to be. Jewish underground organizations start concerted terrorist campaign to unseat the UK from power in Palestine

True. But it was because the extreme limitation that was put on Jewish emigrates after the WW2. People where stuck in the sea and couldn't come to the "national home" that was promised. Not all the Jewish organizations that were here supported this, and from what I know, the attacks were concentrated on the British military, not against civilians (compared to terrorism today?)

14) After prolonged terrorist campaign, and with a failing economy at home, the UK unilaterally pulls out of area, saying it cannot find a solution to the problem.
15) Newly created UN, dominated by post-war victors and those that felt guilty about how Jews had been treated in the war and how no one helped them, decide to support Jewish state with a partition. At that time, Arabs are not seen in a high light in the UN membership.

No shit, Arabs had nations who already were sitting in the UN. Jews got only death. You also forgot to mention that there were 700,000-800,000 Jewish refugees who were forced to leave their homes or got pogrom in the Arab nations, from Asia to North Africa. Finally the Jewish people can have safe home after all the suffering to flee into, and fight for the right to live in a small land that was divided into two states.
It still a fact that most of the Arabs that were in Israel, were not descended but emigrate both in ottoman and British rule.

16) At same time, major Jewish terrorist and non-terrorist organizations combine, declare state of Israel.
17) Surrounding Arab countries move into the power vacumn left by UK which has pulled out and war ensues
18) The Jewish forces which are American supplied are superior in the war, and manage to significantly increase their area. During this war, a concerted campaign was made by Jewish forces to force all Arabs from their homes outside of their controlled territory

1) The UN voted for Israel to be existed. saying "major Jewish terrorist" is just demagogy. The large and calm group was mostly the one who declared Israel and was the first government (it was Hagana, not Hezel, and I have no power to dig about it).

2) Surrounding Arab countries didn't want Israel, and saw an opportunity to destroy it as we were weak. Nothing about vaccum and other bullshit.

3) You should check your sources. The Arabs had superiority in weapons, and only after we had deal with Czechoslovakia (Soviets? :-P), and some smuggling from United State and other sources, we destroyed the Arabs and won the war. Go back reading =]

4) We didn't do campaign to make the Arabs flee. Most of them did it by the calling of he Arabs, so they could return safely after we would have been destroyed. Some fled by themselves. I am not saying that there wasn't some places that people were forced to leave, but saying that Israel had campaign to do so, is just a total lie. If it was true, there wasn't 20% Arabs in Israel today.

19) A million Arabs are left homeless due to this driving out, and to precipitate a crisis, the neighbouring Arab states refuse to accept these refugees.

To bad. They call them "brothers" but cant accept them. History shown that nobody accepted us. Jews were killed everywhere because they were Jews, not because they harmed anyone. 700-800K Jewish people from Arabs countries, can not return to their homes and wont get any loss that was left behind when they were forced to flee.

We have 1 state, they have 22 in the Arab league.

P.s

Israel from the first day, declared that it want peace with her Arab neighbors. Egypt, after failing in wars against us, was the first, and important nation, to sign a peace treaty with us. A peace that Israel respect fully, even tho their president doesn't want to come here.
If we were such an offensive little Zionists who want to kill Muslims, we wouldn't call for peace and accept the agreements. Most of the public opinion is just about what people speak in the media, not about facts of what really going on here (because some Arab expert says in skynews that people in Gaza have no power, when in the TV you can see buildings with lights on... go figure...)

[Cops]

guys, farscape is israeli, there is no way in hell you are going to change his mind on what israel is to him.

Israels gone too far but every country surrounding them is an imminent threat to the survival of Israel. Nothing you can really do except weaken Israel by cutting trade and the flow of arms. Political pressure from the west is the only thing that is going to make this a little better, but in my mind this problem isn't something that will be solved in the next twenty or even thirty years.

[Cops]

What do you think will happen if a foreign entity decides to totally overthrow a democratically elected government once and for all? How do you think the Palestinians would feel like if that were to happen? Not only will it be a serious damage to the stability of democracy but it will leave room for other organizations to take control and go by even more violent ways. You fail to see that Hamas, just like Fatah in those days, has gained a lot of support from the local people as a social movement who might temper its actions if it were recognized internationally and be treated seriously, just like Fatah. You can't really overthrow an organization if it has gained this kind of support amongst the locals. The fact is that the opposite has happened: everyone decided to mark it as purely a terrorist organization and sever all ties, and one famous social scientist (forgot his name) once said that once you start putting a label on people they will act like it. So how about we label them on equal terms and see what will happen next?

Just an estimate from the news yesterday evening, death tolls:

Israel: 5
Gaza: 550

I wonder how many innocent civillians have yet to die before this is over, I can hardly imagine Israel has some magical powers which allows them to seperate civillians from Hamas. This is handicapped David vs. Goliath, after all.

Meh, it may seem like I'm totally anti-Israel and love the Palestinians, but I feel like a lot of people are overly sympathetic to Israel. Even though pretty much everyone states in his posts that they aren't on either side, this is still the feeling I get. I just feel the need to provide a countervoice because it's no secret the Jewish lobby is pretty big in the West and especially in the US, something the Palestinians cannot use to their advantage.

Naturally overthrowing a countries democracy is not something I would agree with. But what do you want America/Canada/Britain/anyone to really do about it? Intervene? Israel has always supported America and unless you haven't realized America's list of allies is wearing pretty thin.

The reality is that other than cutting the flow of money and weapons to these two countries there's not a whole lot you can do. If they want to bomb the shit out of each other, then you can't really stop them.

[gran guerrero]

guys, farscape is israeli, there is no way in hell you are going to change his mind on what israel is to him.

[Vatican Assassin]

You left out some things...

1) Area known as Israel today populated by random tribes
2) Jews took over the area around 1000 BC
3) Romans come in around 0AD
4) Jews slowly move away and are scattered around the world
.
.
.
5) 1000 years where Muslims/Arabs ran and formed the vast majority of the population in the area now known as Israel
6) Late 1800s Zionist movement decides that Jews unfairly treated in Europe, needs a new home
7) UK gives Uganda as a place for Zionists to move to, it is rejected
8) Jews slowly emigrate to area now known as Israel en mass in 1900s
9) UK takes over Palestine from Ottoman Empire, Balfour declaration by Brits support Jewish homeland in Israel as move to weaken Arab control of area. Plan succeeds and Jewish soldiers help UK take over area
10) Jews use this opportunity to move in even more, still local population is mostly Arab. Riots ensue as local population slowly replaced by immigrants. UK decides to stop supporting allowing more Jewish immigration into the area
11) WW2
12) Post WW2 and during WW2 millions of Jews move to Israel due to war/Holocaust.
13) With problems of their own, and with an increasingly restless Arab population feeling threatened by the new immigrants, the UK is caught in a place it really doesn't want to be. Jewish underground organizations start concerted terrorist campaign to unseat the UK from power in Palestine
14) After prolonged terrorist campaign, and with a failing economy at home, the UK unilaterally pulls out of area, saying it cannot find a solution to the problem.
15) Newly created UN, dominated by post-war victors and those that felt guilty about how Jews had been treated in the war and how no one helped them, decide to support Jewish state with a partition. At that time, Arabs are not seen in a high light in the UN membership.
16) At same time, major Jewish terrorist and non-terrorist organizations combine, declare state of Israel.
17) Surrounding Arab countries move into the power vacumn left by UK which has pulled out and war ensues
18) The Jewish forces which are American supplied are superior in the war, and manage to significantly increase their area. During this war, a concerted campaign was made by Jewish forces to force all Arabs from their homes outside of their controlled territory
19) A million Arabs are left homeless due to this driving out, and to precipitate a crisis, the neighbouring Arab states refuse to accept these refugees.

So as you can see, the problem is partially the doing of the founders of Israel itself, partially the doing of great power politics, and partially because the neighbouring Arab countries wanted to keep pressure on the new state of Israel.

You might not be too smart about Ron Paul, but you got Israeli history down, gg! Israel has had Gaza on lock down for the last year, letting very few people supplies etc in or out, you'd be launching potatoes into Israel too if you could grow them. I love how they say its okay to kill civilians hiding in a school with tanks because "hamas fired a rocket from there once." Jesus is getting angry.

[Epinephrine]

You left out some things...

1) Area known as Israel today populated by random tribes
2) Jews took over the area around 1000 BC
3) Romans come in around 0AD
4) Jews slowly move away and are scattered around the world
.
.
.
5) 1000 years where Muslims/Arabs ran and formed the vast majority of the population in the area now known as Israel
6) Late 1800s Zionist movement decides that Jews unfairly treated in Europe, needs a new home
7) UK gives Uganda as a place for Zionists to move to, it is rejected
8) Jews slowly emigrate to area now known as Israel en mass in 1900s
9) UK takes over Palestine from Ottoman Empire, Balfour declaration by Brits support Jewish homeland in Israel as move to weaken Arab control of area. Plan succeeds and Jewish soldiers help UK take over area
10) Jews use this opportunity to move in even more, still local population is mostly Arab. Riots ensue as local population slowly replaced by immigrants. UK decides to stop supporting allowing more Jewish immigration into the area
11) WW2
12) Post WW2 and during WW2 millions of Jews move to Israel due to war/Holocaust.
13) With problems of their own, and with an increasingly restless Arab population feeling threatened by the new immigrants, the UK is caught in a place it really doesn't want to be. Jewish underground organizations start concerted terrorist campaign to unseat the UK from power in Palestine
14) After prolonged terrorist campaign, and with a failing economy at home, the UK unilaterally pulls out of area, saying it cannot find a solution to the problem.
15) Newly created UN, dominated by post-war victors and those that felt guilty about how Jews had been treated in the war and how no one helped them, decide to support Jewish state with a partition. At that time, Arabs are not seen in a high light in the UN membership.
16) At same time, major Jewish terrorist and non-terrorist organizations combine, declare state of Israel.
17) Surrounding Arab countries move into the power vacumn left by UK which has pulled out and war ensues
18) The Jewish forces which are American supplied are superior in the war, and manage to significantly increase their area. During this war, a concerted campaign was made by Jewish forces to force all Arabs from their homes outside of their controlled territory
19) A million Arabs are left homeless due to this driving out, and to precipitate a crisis, the neighbouring Arab states refuse to accept these refugees.

So as you can see, the problem is partially the doing of the founders of Israel itself, partially the doing of great power politics, and partially because the neighbouring Arab countries wanted to keep pressure on the new state of Israel.

[FarScape]

First of all it's not like the Palestinians just one day came and said "we don't think Israel should exist". You left out a few tiny details like they (800 000 palestinians) where thrown out from their homes and left without a state for about 60 years. Not even going to bother to list all other things you left out.

What definition of terrorism are you all using? I looked up a bunch and both Israel and the US fits perfectly under that category. It's confusing since it's difficult to know who you guys are addressing when you write "the terrorists".

You should learn history, I thought to say that you are ignorant, but I will try to explain you so you could understand.
Learn the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict, Ill give you few things to start with according to what you just said:

1) The land of Israel was divided to two countries, for Arabs (palestinians) and for the Jewish people.

2) The Arabs didn't accept it (the Jews did) and because of that, 4 armies came to destroy our newly born country.

3) The Palestinians, who thought Israel would be destroyed in that war, left their homes by the encouragement of the Arabs nations. Unfortunately for them, they lost badly.

4) Since then, every Palestinian faction that raised up, wanted to destroy Israel, after Egypt, Jordan and Syria failed to do so, last attempt in Yom Kipur. The Fatah, was also extreme in thought, tho Yasser Arafat at the end of his career, recognized the state of Israel in 1967 border.

5) If you want the truth? Nobody got thrown for the last 60 years. In fact, there was never such a nation called Palestinians. Palestine is the name of the land that the Roman empire gave to Judah, to shatter the jewish symbolic from the land. The Palestinian population was growing under the Ottoman empire in the area by 270%, which in simply, a fact that most of the Palestinians today are tribes who came from arab nations to support the Ottoman empire work power. There was no Palestinians nationality till Israel was born.

6) Even so, we were dumb in 1948, after the big WW2 where it was very common all around the globe that people from different nations were moving and changing, not to separate with them, or at least, give Jordan and Egypt the control of Gaza and the West bank. Now we need to deal with them and divide our already small little land.

7) according to your definition, Sweden is also terrorist nation, by claiming neutrality but supporting the Nazis (industrial) in WW2. You support Terrorists!
Or maybe France, after what they did in their colonization in Africa!
Wait!!! what about Spain and the fight against the Basque there!
What about Russia and what they did in Georgia and still doing in Chechnya?
and OMG! Jordan killed so many Palestinians in the black September! they are also terrorists!
And Britain, they killed so many in Dresden, how many was that? 400k people?
AND JAPAN, omg, HOW THEY KILLED SO MANY CHINESE, but I guess the terrorists who nuke them after Pearl arbor and the pacific war make them ok now for you.

[R1pp3r]

R1pp3r - Imagine Finland one day come and say: "we don't think Sweden should exist", and they start firing your east border with tens of rockets everyday. they also kidnapped soldiers and they wont allow anyone, even the red cross, to check if he is alright. The Swedish government, with Norway, after 6-7 years of firing from Finland, decide the do cease fire to make things more quiet. Finland doesn't give shit about this, and keep firing rockets daily (5 rockets everyday). The cease fire ends after half a year, and Finland is firing tens of rockets again.

What are you, as Swedish citizen, would want your country to do against this situation?

Oh, and remember, there are Swedish soldiers who nobody heard from them for the last 3 years, and the Finnish people make use of this to demoralize and threat to do more acts like that.

First of all it's not like the Palestinians just one day came and said "we don't think Israel should exist". You left out a few tiny details like they (800 000 palestinians) where thrown out from their homes and left without a state for about 60 years. Not even going to bother to list all other things you left out.

What definition of terrorism are you all using? I looked up a bunch and both Israel and the US fits perfectly under that category. It's confusing since it's difficult to know who you guys are addressing when you write "the terrorists".

[FarScape]

So you're trying to tell me with a straight face that Israel pulled out ALL of their personnel from Gaza in 2006? You and I both know this isn't exactly true, and I will retort with a ROFL.

As for starving + need for humanitarian aid, it isn't a "lie" as you so elequently put it, people are actually starving to death, and are not recieving proper medical care.

You mentioned the tunnels from gaza to egypt, yes there are/were tunnels, but you conveniently forgot to mention that on day one, Israel bombed the shit out of the gaza tunnel network, it is now almost impossible to get aid to gaza via these tunnels.

You also forgot to mention that Egyptian aid has not been allowed into gaza by the Israelis, citing that gaza is a quarantined war zone, hell Israel wouldn't even allow the red cross into gaza to deliver aid until a few days ago.

PLEASE don't misunderstand this, I'm not taking sides here, but I don't see Israel as a victim, they are also responsible for their own agression in this matter.

LOLOL

1) yes, no one was left in GAZA! NO ONE SINGLE JEWISH\Israeli\Zionist. it was all under Hamas control. you can laugh, but that is the fact, not the lies you hear who knows where.

2) They didn't brought AID from those tunnels you fool. how do you think they have all those rockets and weapons? The food, oil and medical supplies came from the Israeli passages in trucks. Hamas by the way, used to attack those passages to harm Israelis soldiers and to stop the supplies, in order to justify the rockets attacks. I guess nobody tell you that...

3) the Egyptian aid from the arab and golf countries are held by Egypt. NOT ISRAEL. don't made up bullshit. Israel is even now allowing aid to come into gaza from OUR borders, so again, you speak false.

4) Israel is responsible for nothing. you are just making the same stupid voices that said that we were the fault of what happened in Lebanon in 2006.
This is fucking middle-east, we can't bare terrorist group attacking our people, kidnapping our soldiers and threat our lives.

R1pp3r - Imagine Finland one day come and say: "we don't think Sweden should exist", and they start firing your east border with tens of rockets everyday. they also kidnapped soldiers and they wont allow anyone, even the red cross, to check if he is alright. The Swedish government, with Norway, after 6-7 years of firing from Finland, decide the do cease fire to make things more quiet. Finland doesn't give shit about this, and keep firing rockets daily (5 rockets everyday). The cease fire ends after half a year, and Finland is firing tens of rockets again.

What are you, as Swedish citizen, would want your country to do against this situation?

Oh, and remember, there are Swedish soldiers who nobody heard from them for the last 3 years, and the Finnish people make use of this to demoralize and threat to do more acts like that.

[DankNuggets]

don't have time to catch up on this thread atm, so i'll just post this and come back to it.

http://www.aksalser.com/game.htm

[Scoop]

yea, nuke a country with nuclear weapons. Good strategy

My thoughts:

Short Term

-Invasion is unlikely given America's support for Israel
-America's support for Israel is justified by the militancy of Hamas
-Hamas need to stop aggrovating Israel and stop firing rockets into their territory, there's no way they can 'win' that way - Israel is much the stronger power
-Hamas need to realise that in order to gain international support for their grievances they need to respond to Israeli occupation in a peaceful way
-If Hamas do exclude militant factions of it's party, America will be left unable to justify their current position and will be isolated if they do maintain it.
-International community should use military force if Israeli army does not leave Gaza

Long Term

- Give each state independent, sovereign rule of itself
- Give each state a place and veto on the UN council
- Apply sanctions/diplomatic pressure/military force to either state if they do not co-operate.

Good strategy. I'm sure the UN is going to give a position to terrorists.

[R1pp3r]

I am curious as to what type of rockets are fired at your New Years celebrations?

Well, I live in Sweden and there are always a few people who are hit and killed by the tiny rockets that are launched a few minutes around midnight. Yes, Hamas have weapons bigger than those rockets but unfortunately aren't killing more people and in comparison to Israel's weapons they are like firecrackers. Hamas might be terrorists but again in comparison to Israel they don’t look all that bad.

Metalheadz's long term solutions are the most reasonable but sadly not achievable with the US meddling.