WTF Japan? Epic thread of problems

[Epinephrine]

Well, I fail to see the parents pushing you academically point. Teenagers are all rebellious as it is, and if a parent tries to push them in a country like USA beyond their limits the kid will lash back and do the opposite. I've seen it many times. Pushing your kid that hard to succeed is a wash at best, and most likely will make them worse off in life later. Academically speaking, a kid is only as good as his intelligence AND motivation. A parent breathing down your neck to succeed in that world is NOT motivation, actually its the contrary.

In Asian countries, it's not acceptable to 'lash back and do the opposite'. Well yes, you can do it, your parents just disown you. It's a completely different society. Americans are all about individualism, and individual beliefs and ideals. It really isn't like that in the rest of the world, so as hard as it may be to see, people are actually ashamed when they can't meet the unrealistic expectations that their parents put on them, rather than just lashing out even if some will.

And yes I completely agree that a parent breathing down your back is not good, but people still do it. It's not a good thing.

Asian societies are much, much, much more introverted than America is. Instead of picking up and leaving, going out and causing trouble or however Americans may rebel against their parents, generally asians would rather go into their shells more and be even more detached from society. This is not to say everyone is like that, but a lot more than in America (acknowledging that Emo kids who cut themselves are like that too probably).

[Cops]

Same here Cops, my college tuition was ridiculously expensive and if I didn't get my scholarship I wouldn't have been able to afford to go. Problem is the cost of college tuition's just keep going up and up as well.

I'm glad my tuition is a little more regulated than most State run universities in the U.S, at the same time I don't feel completely wronged for being asked to pay 4-5 thousand dollars a year for University. I believe I'd be paying double or triple this if I went to a State University (which I have residency in), like Ohio State.

I just got my OSAP loan papers in the mail, beginning September I'll need to start making payments on my $10,000 debt. Normally I'd be fine with this since for a College Diploma 10k isn't a ridiculous amount of money to pay back. I would normally be making 35,000 - 45,00 with my Diploma, without it I'd be making $25,000 - 30,000. My Diploma pays for itself within a year, so it's all good.

However; here's the big however, because there isn't very many job prospects I know that I can try to find a job for a few months but after that I'm going to have to work somewhere I don't necessarily want to work. I have an internship that isn't paid, so at least that's something. I'm not pissed off right now, but in a few months when I'm working in a shoe store or some shit I'll probably blow a fucking gasket. Maybe I'll say "fuck my passion, Ryan has got to get paid", and I'll go back to school for something that's a lot more stable. I also have a $2000 scholarship (each year, up to four years--- I already used two) my Grampa gave me. I have a total of $4000 left. If I don't use the money I lose it. I can wait a year to use it, but after that year I need to be registered in a new program or the money's gone.

[Cops]

Yea... I have to keep a 3.7 (A-) average to keep my scholarships. Talk about pressure. In addition, 1/3 of my classes each quarter must be either honors classes or upper-division (500 level).

That's harsh, I have to keep up a 3.5 cumulative. I think I received a 3.2 or something last semester, and this semester I'll likely end with a 3.4. I don't have current plans to go to school next year, but it'd be nice to know I have $4000 (each year) if I decide to go back.

The highest GPA you can receive at my institution is a 4.0.

[Squeezer]

The American system is very different.

Agreed

Yes you have these tests you have to take, but while they may be tests that you need to pass to pass high school, you just need to PASS them. This means that for the most part, they are made so that any generally not really dumb or really lazy person could pass it without TOO much effort.

Agreed again. I passed them.

As for the SAT, I took it myself and the SATIIs back when I was in high school because I was thinking of applying for an American university, but yet again it's different.

First of all, if you fail any of those high school tests in America, you can retake them. Secondly, you are just passing them. We have similar type tests that started in Ontario (after I graduated haha). In Asian countries, these tests actually DETERMINE what nursery/primary/middle/high school you go to. I actually had to pass a bunch of tests before I could go to an elite NURSERY SCHOOL in Hong Kong when I was 2.

See my last post where I talk about the WASL. You get two shots and that's it. While that seems stupid for you and I, the tests have been proven to be racially biased on multiple occasions. It also harms the teachers because they're forced to teach to the test rather than in a manner that is child specific. But that's a whole different issue.

As you said above, America is a different place and Western culture is vastly different than Eastern. Being a product of Western culture, I know as much as I've been immersed in it. Eastern culture is very foreign to me, which is why it took me so long to reply here. That hakaku guy definitely knows more about the topic at hand than I do, so I'm not sure what I have to add.

I will say this however. American culture is highly pressured in a different sense. Money is our great god. You need money to get anywhere; you need money to meet the right people; you need money to better your family's chances in the world. Academics are certainly stressed here. As much as in Japan? Probably not. The real pressure, I feel, comes from the expectation that most of us will work a dream job and achieve beyond our parents. That's what is socially expected. Of course its not going to pan out that way and I fear that I'll find my way into the gears at some point, but that is a legitimate fear that keeps many going.

/What this also means is that if your friends don't get a certain mark... well you'll probably never see them again in school. This also means, that it's a constant competition from DAY 1 to get into better and better schools. Couple this with the fact that education is so much more important in the Asian psyche, there is enormous pressure from parents to succeed. In North America, there is pressure for things like extracurriculars, volunteering or sports, but in Asian countries, all of that pressure is just put into academics and academics only unless you're going to some special sports school.

We have a different version of this separation via racially segregating the school districts. Again, these tests determine how the state funds each school. If a school continually underachieves on the tests, a situation you would figure requires more funding and effort to improve, they also lose funding. While students may not feel those stresses, you can be assured that teachers and parents are stressed.

Secondly, the structure of society for many centuries dictates that the better university you go to, the better you will be seen by society, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. While people might struggle for an Ivy league education in North America, lots of people get by quite well without it and even succeed quite well in life. You don't NEED super high SAT scores, because you can go to State university and still get good jobs if you work hard. It's drastically harder in Asian countries to do so, because your rank matters so much more from day 1 and you are judged by that so much harder.

As I said, being born in the wrong neighborhood will have the same effects here. It's possible to surpass the expectations and do well, but the odds certainly aren't in their favor. Private school systems serve to segregate students even further. Sports stars from the bad parts of town make it in, but for the most part only wealthy parents can afford to send their kids. These schools practically guarantee admission to college. Acceptance rates are far better than ever in the past, as far as inviting a diverse student body, but a problem still remains.

Finally, professional programs in Japan like in many other places in the world start after high school. In North America, you don't go into law school or medical school until doing some undergrad first, and since admissions are blind to what school you go to, there really isn't much difference where you go for undergrad as long as you do well on your LSAT/MCAT which you can write however many times you want.


In Japan (like many other places as mentioned), because you start after high school, you have that ONE TEST which if you fail, you will never be a doctor or a lawyer. You will never be a lot of things, because you didn't jump through that one hoop when you were 17/18.

That sounds shitty. I never said Japan wasn't worse, only that America had its share of academic stress.

One final thing is, in North America, a lot of the pressures of succeeding further in life are self-inflicted. A lot of people I know in medicine or law did take those Kaplan review courses for LSAT/MCAT and so on, but they did it for their own interest because they themselves want to succeed. In Asian societies, pressure is usually given from parents and family, where parents will constantly pressure from day 1 for their kids to succeed beyond everything. Unless you live in such a family, it is very hard to understand, and certainly the typical North American person probably wouldn't truly understand. When you are pressured beyond belief to do something you probably don't think you can do or even want to do but you must do anyway, and so does everyone else, and then you have to compete really hard because you only have that ONE chance to 'make it', it's a lot of pressure and I can see why people would get really depressed over it, especially if they don't end up succeeding.

I don't know. Western religion makes some people act a certain way. American social values certainly affect the way we all communicate. There are similar norms here. They're present in the workplace, school and other social settings. Yes they're different, but each American school kid (and later American worker) is pressured to abide by these standards. I always believed the Japanese had a lot of social freedom to express themselves materially, like Americans, but I'm probably mistaken. I'd like to know more about that.

I'd say if you were super smart like Pandagirl over there, it probably wouldn't matter so much anyway, because you could get somewhere in life with just your smarts, but for everyone else it sucks ass.

Of course I'm just saying in general, I guess Hakaku knows a lot more than I would.

I find the hikikumori (sp?) very interesting. In fact, Japanese culture as a whole is very fascinating. They've made some of my favorite movies and its easy to see the evidence of how different their culture is now by comparing a Miike film with an Ozu or Kurosawa. They've grown up too fast and the culture seems ungrounded. Again, I've never been to the East, so I don't know anything personally about the culture, but I do enjoy reading about it.

[Exalt]

I'm glad my tuition is a little more regulated than most State run universities in the U.S, at the same time I don't feel completely wronged for being asked to pay 4-5 thousand dollars a year for University. I believe I'd be paying double or triple this if I went to a State University (which I have residency in), like Ohio State.

I just got my OSAP loan papers in the mail, beginning September I'll need to start making payments on my $10,000 debt. Normally I'd be fine with this since for a College Diploma 10k isn't a ridiculous amount of money to pay back. I would normally be making 35,000 - 45,00 with my Diploma, without it I'd be making $25,000 - 30,000. My Diploma pays for itself within a year, so it's all good.

However; here's the big however, because there isn't very many job prospects I know that I can try to find a job for a few months but after that I'm going to have to work somewhere I don't necessarily want to work. I have an internship that isn't paid, so at least that's something. I'm not pissed off right now, but in a few months when I'm working in a shoe store or some shit I'll probably blow a fucking gasket. Maybe I'll say "fuck my passion, Ryan has got to get paid", and I'll go back to school for something that's a lot more stable. I also have a $2000 scholarship (each year, up to four years--- I already used two) my Grampa gave me. I have a total of $4000 left. If I don't use the money I lose it. I can wait a year to use it, but after that year I need to be registered in a new program or the money's gone.

$5000 a year is nothing at all. You are in debt for $10k and that doesn't cover one single year at a state university in the USA. You vastly underestimated Ohio State tuition too... because being a resident it only lowers tuition down to the $15k a year range, and that's not including books, living expenses, or fees.

If you have a degree with only $10k spent, you have no room to complain. On top of that, you saying "oh no I might have to get a job I don't want!" to pay it back is rediculous. Welcome to the real world. Did you honestly live in this fantasy world where you get the perfect job, do nothing all day, and get paid an shitload of money while not having to pay bills?

[Izor]

Again this guy knows nothing about the military, but speaks as though he knows everything. I dont have to eat at the chow hall every day, but since I live on base in the dorms, they take out money for the meal card automatically. When I move off base later this year I'll have a 300 dollar a month allowance for food. Going where I get stationed comes with the territory. You know that going in. You know you're going to deploy.

Needless to say, I doubt your parents pushed you that hard. I doubt you had to go to special tutor sessions after school since you were in grade 1 to learn more and get yelled at for actually wanting to go out and play once a month. I don't get a sense that you understand how it is to be really pressured by your parents at all. See my post to cops.

So now everyone in Asia/Japan has a tutor in first grade? And they get yelled at if they want to play? This is again where your stereotypes are hurting you. My parents encouraged me to be smart and learn, which is pressure. They didnt sit me down with a dictionary and say 'You will learn how to spell every word in here' or anything, but I'm guessing that doesnt happen any more in Japan than it does here, because if it did the suicide rate would be even higher.

Most rich kids (including some former presidents) don't actually learn any discipline in the military and just slack off because their father is this guy or that guy

Another guy that knows nothing about the military or how people react. My father is a GS-14 for the FAA, the civilian equivalent of a colonel. I get no special treatment at work because of who he is. At basic training we had a guy in our flight whose dad was a Lt. Gen and he got picked on as much as the rest of us, but he wanted to do well for himself and he was an element leader. In fact the TI's didnt even know his dad was an O-9 until they asked the question of 'will there be any distinguished visitors at the graduation?'

The chart I linked doesnt weaken my argument at all...if THAT many people are working part time jobs to offset the people that work ridiculous hours then that means most of the people are working less hours, and your stereotype is wrong.

I already said that my first post was pretty much trolling, because I didnt think anyone would make such ridiculous stereotypes about the country as a whole and act as though they know whats going on over there because they watched some tv shows that depict asians in such a way.

[Galleleo]

To be honest, having experienced a bit of the US school system. I wouldn't be to proud about your A's or B's. It is ridiculously easy to get an A. There is only 1 class for which I actually have to put in some work to get an A.

In the Netherlands I can work as hard as I want, I would never be able to get above an 8 average (which is seen as a B here) and I can guarantee you that there are very, very few people who are capable of reaching a 9 or higher average in the Netherlands. I even know that depending on what you are studying in the Netherlands, the grades I get here will get interpreted differently. Last semester their were 2 guys from my university here in the US studying at the same university, taking the same course. Both scored an A on the course, the one doing Economy got it converted to an 8, the one doing Business Administration got it converted to a 9.

Now I don't know how the grading is in Japan, but in the case that it would be closer to the Netherlands, I can assure you any academic pressure applied there is automatically higher than in the US. Again that is in the case that grading there is more comparable with the Netherlands than the US which I wouldn't know. Just putting things in perspective.

[Nethila]

having personally studied in both school systems (Chinese and Canadian), i can tell you the education system in East Asian countries (chinese, japan, korea) is vastly different from North America.

Did you know, in China/HK, to get into a good kindergarten, kids who are 4, 5 years old have to get interviewed? Not with questions like "what your name?" or "how old are you", but with simple math problems, and depending on the school, some tricky ones too.. like "there are 4 corners on a table, if u cut one corner off, how many corners do you have now?"

Starting from grade 1, students will have midterms and final exams every year, along with multiple small and big tests along the school term. Average kids will spend at like 2, 3 hours on homeworks from school alone, and when u count in the extra works their parents give them, kids usually dont get free time literally about an hour before bedtime.

To enroll into junior high, there are 2 ways. You can enroll in your local junior high (kinda like here in Canada) without doing any extra exams or have to do really well in your school terms. All you need is to pass your final grade in elementary school. However, if you want to be enrolled in any sort of decent good ones, you will have to do extremely well in your elementary school, or take the extra exams (only some school offers that option), or.. if your parents are rich, enroll through backdoors with lots of $$$$ offering for your tuition.

To enroll in senior high, i believe (as i never took one, only seen my cousins do it) you have to do well in a municipal exams? Or, theres always the other option of counting on your oh so rich parents.

As for Universities, theres the national university enrollment exam. SAT is one big exam i believe? while the University enrollment exams is multiple big exams.

Unlike here (in canada), where as long as you PASS, you can go all way thru and graduate high school without a problem. In China, one exam, can screw up your entire life. Even if you average A++++++++++++ (or 100%) thru out your school years, those final exams can fuk you up royally. I've seen so many cases of insanely smart kids fukd up their enrollment exams (not just for universities, but for junior high and senior high).

I personally am very grateful that I moved to Canada RIGHT before i have to take the Junior high exam. Let me just put it this way, i was under more pressure when i was in elementary school in china... then i ever was here (university included... maybe except midterm period). Highschools here are a breeeeeeze.

[Galleleo]

My parents encouraged me to be smart and learn, which is pressure.

That is not pressure. My parents encouraged me to be smart, that is no pressure. That is them stimulating me.

Parents constantly letting you know that you A- isn't good enough, parents telling you you are not allowed to watch tv before you read an entire book. Parents constantly asking you if you did your homework, if you got any grades, berating you for getting a B, grounding you to study harder. That is pressure.

[Nycle]

Now I don't know how the grading is in Japan, but in the case that it would be closer to the Netherlands, I can assure you any academic pressure applied there is automatically higher than in the US. Again that is in the case that grading there is more comparable with the Netherlands than the US which I wouldn't know. Just putting things in perspective.

Are you implying 'academic pressure' is high in the Netherlands? If so, then I'd like to say that we both know that's not true :P

We owe it to our ridiculously accessible and 'socialised' academic system in which pretty much any qualified (proper high school diploma's etc.) person can attend any university regardless of their available resources. 'Scholarships' are so popular and envied in North-America, here they are non-existent because they aren't needed. Imo, this alltogether has created a culture in which almost every student only works just hard enough to barely pass their courses, they don't have the incentive to work hard and get that 8 or 9 because they know they barely have to give up resources for it.

[Izor]

No, its pressure because when your parents reward you with praise you want to continue achieving the same results to make them happy and therefore are pressured to do well in the future

Haha, whose parents didnt constantly hound them about doing homework??? Or keeping up good grades? You can even see that in American TV shows, which apparently is evidence now.

[Galleleo]

Are you implying 'academic pressure' is high in the Netherlands? If so, then I'd like to say that we both know that's not true :P

We owe it to our ridiculously accessible and 'socialised' academic system in which pretty much any qualified (proper high school diploma's etc.) person can attend any university regardless of their available resources. 'Scholarships' are so popular and envied in North-America, here they are non-existent because they aren't needed. Imo, this alltogether has created a culture in which almost every student only works just hard enough to barely pass their courses, they don't have the incentive to work hard and get that 8 or 9 because they know they barely have to give up resources for it.

No, I am not implying there is academic pressure in the Netherlands.

I am saying the grading and actual tests in the Netherlands are a shit ton harder than in the US. And I know people that work really hard, study a lot, certainly compared to me, cause I really don't give a shit about my grades, as long as I pass. But no one I have ever met has managed to get higher than an 8 average. And I have known some true nerds.

What I was saying is that if the grading/test in Japan are closer to those of the Netherlands, thus making it a lot harder to be a straight A student, any pressure on performing Academically will be higher, because it would be a lot harder to get those good grades.

[Exalt]

No, I am not implying there is academic pressure in the Netherlands.

I am saying the grading and actual tests in the Netherlands are a shit ton harder than in the US. And I know people that work really hard, study a lot, certainly compared to me, cause I really don't give a shit about my grades, as long as I pass. But no one I have ever met has managed to get higher than an 8 average. And I have known some true nerds.

What I was saying is that if the grading/test in Japan are closer to those of the Netherlands, thus making it a lot harder to be a straight A student, any pressure on performing Academically will be higher, because it would be a lot harder to get those good grades.

It being slightly harder in the netherlands to pass high school does not matter at all. A high school diploma in the US is worthless. No one cares about it whatsoever, and the only reason to get it really is to go to college afterword. The only thing that matters to the work force is your college education, not where you went to high school.

[Epinephrine]

As for Universities, theres the national university enrollment exam. SAT is one big exam i believe? while the University enrollment exams is multiple big exams.

Yes I think they don't realize that the SAT is nothing like these entrance exams. The SATs are a joke. I wrote it in grade 10 and got 1480. It's a general knowledge exam that anyone with a grade 10 education should be able to write. Not only that, but you can write the SATs over and over. Not only that but SATs aren't the only thing that universities look at, they also look at references, your essay and your grades.

The asian-style entrance exams are like final exams for your final years courses, all rolled into one massive exam. Nothing else really matters at that stage.

[Salubrious]

To be honest, having experienced a bit of the US school system. I wouldn't be to proud about your A's or B's. It is ridiculously easy to get an A. There is only 1 class for which I actually have to put in some work to get an A.

In the Netherlands I can work as hard as I want, I would never be able to get above an 8 average (which is seen as a B here) and I can guarantee you that there are very, very few people who are capable of reaching a 9 or higher average in the Netherlands. I even know that depending on what you are studying in the Netherlands, the grades I get here will get interpreted differently. Last semester their were 2 guys from my university here in the US studying at the same university, taking the same course. Both scored an A on the course, the one doing Economy got it converted to an 8, the one doing Business Administration got it converted to a 9.

Now I don't know how the grading is in Japan, but in the case that it would be closer to the Netherlands, I can assure you any academic pressure applied there is automatically higher than in the US. Again that is in the case that grading there is more comparable with the Netherlands than the US which I wouldn't know. Just putting things in perspective.

Even though we're apparently comparing differences in education in different countries now, you do realize even within a single country there are many differences. For example, my high school experience was much different from Pandagirl's. I went to high school in Southern California and my school had was literally 75% Asian American. We had no school rankings, and my graduating class had 3 people accepted into Harvard (one went), one went to Princeton, and one to CalTech with a full ride. Only one of those classmates was Asian fyi. Basically, what i'm saying is that my high school was hard as hell in comparison to some of the other high schools even within my city (my town had 4). Some of my middle school friends who decided to go to different high schools got better grades than me at half the effort.

I personally only applied to UC's (University of California is a nationally well-known school system within the United States, for all you foreigners) and one or two Ivy leagues with a 4.2 or 4.3 GPA and 2200 on the new SAT, even though I was pretty certain that I would wind up going to a UC anyways, which I did/am. However, instead of saving money on scholarships (of which I have none), I instead only have to pay about 8k a year for a public education instead of a private one. There was no way in hell I would've been able to afford a private school education even if I had gotten in.

Also, I can verify any claims about the education system in China at the very least (though not Japan). I have several cousins who went through the complete education system there, from a cousin who got into Beijing University (the best University in China) to a cousin who just recently did quite mediocre on the college placement exams and has not just her own parents, but even my own parents admonishing her mistakes (seriously, my parents are putting pressure on her all the way in America). I even have a cousin in Chinese military school, although I'm not sure how the Chinese military school program compares to the American military.