Ukraine

[Exalt]

Is there anyone from trenchwars that lives around that area with legitimate news of what is really going on? I'm tired of going on facebook and seeing people post some dumb blog about Obama being horrible or the NWO or WW3 starting posted by some crazier person than t0ne. There definitely is some shit going down though.

[Crescent Seal]

think this is more important

[Azov]

I've traveled to Ukraine in the past and as a student of strategic studies, I can offer some clarity against the spin of the mainstream press...

Russia's 76th Guards Air Assault Division has around 9,000 troops in the Crimean region, transiting from Russia via helicopter, strategic airlift, and utilizing the tunnel system that connects Crimea and mainland Russia across the Sea of Azov. These troops are also the ones you are seeing on news reels mainly, supported by support vehicles, some infantry fighting vehicles, and armored personnel carriers. They have also barricaded Ukrainian Border Guard installations and Ukraine's Navy's installations in Sevastopol.

Spetsnaz forces (Russia's special forces units) from the 45th Regiment are also controlling civilian airfields in the area and are tasked with securing other infrastructure such as roadways, communications, etc.

Russia's Western and Central military districts, which compromise your basic armor, artillery, and mechanized forces are mobilized and are ready for a general incursion of eastern Ukraine if it comes to that.

The Russian Black Sea Fleet is active and deployed in the waters around Crimea, and has also blockaded a portion of the Ukrainian Navy from deploying. Russia also has warships from the Northern Fleet on exercises with the Admiral Kuznetsov in the Mediterranean, which could be diverted there if that level of firepower was needed...but that's unlikely.

From people I know on the ground in Crimea, things are calm and non-violent at the moment. Russian and U.S. diplomats are talking intensely behind the scenes to come to some resolution, though its unclear how that will pan out.

[Shaddowknight]

do a google search, yiu can find some useful stuff if you know what to avoid (i.e. checking on CNN, but not fox.com)

[roxxkatt]

or you can read this:

http://imgur.com/gallery/qCXlb

[roxxkatt]

some great pictures came out of the riots

[roxxkatt]

http://imgur.com/gallery/2YIni

[roxxkatt]

and then theres this badass motherfucker right here



kopat prdel ve jménu Ježíše

[Jones]

those pictures are probably from reddit and are depicting what happened a few months ago.

azov thanks for your post.

Since 5:45 am we have been returning the fire...

[Jones]

edit months to weeks

[Izor]

Man it gets harder and harder for people to defend the Obama adminstration's repeated foreign policy blunders. It's gotta be great to be Putin right now. The guy is making the US look like shit every few weeks whether it be the Syria chemical weapons failure or letting Snowden extend his life for a little while longer. Now he's on what appears to be the verge of invading Ukraine and the Obama is showing yet another weak response. The only consequence for his actions so far seems to be us not showing up to the G8 conference.

Our country probably doesnt want another war right now, but if we keep backing down and letting these guys do whatever they want it'll almost certainly lead there anyway.

[Azov]

It's not really a failure. What are we supposed to do? Inject ourselves in a conflict that is arising over centuries of strategic, cultural, and social evolutions? There are very, very few options in which to proceed from a U.S. point of view. But the one thing you don't want to do is provoke the Russians further and escalate to where we may be risking a general conflict with Russia to. That leads to disastrous results; and frankly, Ukraine is not worth it at the end of the day. So from a U.S. point of view, we're playing this close to the vest and measuring our responses.

[roxxkatt]

months to weeks

revolutions dont happen overnight bro

What are we supposed to do? Inject ourselves in a conflict?

yes according to rednecks usa is world police

[qan]

Man it gets harder and harder for people to defend the Obama adminstration's repeated foreign policy blunders. It's gotta be great to be Putin right now. The guy is making the US look like shit every few weeks whether it be the Syria chemical weapons failure or letting Snowden extend his life for a little while longer. Now he's on what appears to be the verge of invading Ukraine and the Obama is showing yet another weak response. The only consequence for his actions so far seems to be us not showing up to the G8 conference.

Our country probably doesnt want another war right now, but if we keep backing down and letting these guys do whatever they want it'll almost certainly lead there anyway.

Are you suggesting that if it escalates further, the US should go to war with Russia, which has the 5th largest army in the world, ~8500 nuclear warheads, and a long history of holding a grudge, simply because we don't want to be seen as "weak"? Let me guess; you're the guy that thinks you "win" if someone backs down from a fight with you.

And no offense... but the US does a pretty good job of making itself look bad to anyone whose news sources contain a few selections outside American media. We don't really need much help from the outside world.

Seriously, though: US foreign policy is explicitly focused on short conflicts with next-to-defenseless nations in order to install pro-US (read: pro-US-business) governments. This includes some really clever tricks. My favorite one is supplying food aid to nations that have a healthy agricultural market and no demonstrable food shortage. Why would you do this? Well, for one, it looks great on paper. But also, if the farmers support "terrorists" (which of course are known as "freedom fighters" when they support US interests/will help install a pro-US leader, regardless of if they put Al'Qaeda to shame in terms of barbarism) you can force them out of their livelihood. All food prices drop dramatically; in response, they grow coca, opium, marijuana, etc. They don't have to grow coca, but that's the most reasonable option, short of selling the farm, leaving behind all they know, and going to work in the cities. The government forces can then raid these numerous drug operations, detain or kill the farmers and their families, and if they're really feeling gutsy, sell the narcotics themselves. Revolution contained! And all you had to do was supply a few special forces commanders to train the government militia, and dedicate some of the aid budget to the cause. Talk about making your dollar work for you!

This is the kind of strategy we have been employing since WWII, and to some extent, earlier. (Remember, we were the nation that removed most of its native population by trading blankets known to be infested with smallpox, and signing "unbreakable" treaties claiming we'd never advance further west again... I guess we meant the Pacific Ocean?)


All that aside, Ukraine may become embroiled in a civil war, and that may threaten regional stability, but in the end, responsibility lies with those in the region if they choose to act. Introducing foreign troops often causes further instability; often, after the conflict is resolved, the native inhabitants resent the meddling influence of the occupying army and a new conflict begins that is just as much about control of the country as the first one.

[Izor]

I'm not calling for war or something drastic here for fuck sake. They haven't even really done anything. We have to put clear, hard sanctions down so that if Putin does something he knows how badly it will impact him economically. I also really doubt that it's a coincidence that Putin started playing these games just days after our genius SecDef decided to announce that he's about to gut our military.

If you don't react early to these nations gaining power then it becomes a real issue later on. The world saw this with WW2 and several other empire builders in history. I doubt people thought Austria was a big deal in the grand scheme of things at the time, too.

I guess maybe Obama can draw a line in the sand or whatever he said about the chemical weapons in Syria, then when Putin crosses it he can do nothing (again) and look like an asshole (again). That's great policy.