Poll: Should we limit certain kinds of speech in TW?

[qan]

In your opinion, should Trench Wars introduce the following new rule?

"Discussions of politics, race, gender, sexuality, and religion are not allowed."

(Punishment for violations of this rule would be decided at a later time, but might include warnings, silencing or zone bans.)





This is not a vote, but rather a poll to determine what the community thinks about the issue. It's been created in response to a recent thread in which several players voiced their support for this approach to moderation.

If you wish to have your say, ?go vote in-game and PM the bot TW-Vote. You will need to enter the arena first. To enter the arena, you must have at least 500 hours of usage. This ensures that only serious players with a long-standing interest in the community have a say, and discourages troll votes. If you vote on two different names in the poll, you will be zone-banned for a minimum of 30 days.

This poll will be active for 1 week.

[Mythril]

Feels dangerous letting the public vote on something like this. The answer is absolutely not, especially if the punishments for holding a conversation about any of these topics isn't yet defined at all. And this isn't even a slippery slope kind of argument. Enacting any kind of strict policy on any of this stuff would be going too far. Pub culture is literally at least 50% public pseudo-science conspiracy debate, sure. But what's wrong with that? I actually do enjoy reading it and chiming in sometimes. It seems to me, if you're remotely intelligent enough, you should be able to see it for what it is and not cry foul whenever you see something that triggers you. Welcome to subspace, we've been here for 20 years.

Would we gain more players? We'd probably lose more, rather instantly. This is another case of the few loud morons on the forums making more noise during the competitive offseason. The more stable people tend to stay off here until another active spike happens with another league. The forums are never a reflection of the actual population as a whole, and that rings more true during these times.

But if you're going to allow a vote, the 500 hour usage limit shouldn't be the only qualifier. How about we disqualify anyone who's ignore list has more than 5 players on it? Is that not a sign of emotional instability? And considering there's been multiple posts on here of ignore lists that somehow reach 80% of the people talking these days, don't the few complainers already have a way of dealing with this?

[skyforger]

Lol no

[Mootland Farmer]

Ban private frequencies and move people from Spec and this problem is solved.

[Rab]

Is there a regular zoner set up so people who don't lurk the forums can get to hear about this?

[Falconeer]

I already said No, and detailed how to moderate properly in previous threads.

Qan could have spent this time devving with me all day yesterday and improving conditions for the zone getting and retaining players, instead he opted to focus on policing people. Horrible leadership by the people in charge as usual.

That being said this moderates like three "trolls": Tower, Manco, Pinky. It does nothing to curb or stop trolls like me or others, it does nothing to stop trolls from adapting their tactics either. If someone doesn't want to get banned they won't get banned and still cause trouble and make people quit the game. Most people who talk about these general broad topics are not even trolls, so now you are moderating your less extreme player base. Again also consider this is not a game of saints? everyone here has some sort of issue and shit talked someone before, only a small percentage like Freespirit just plays the game, so not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

A good troll will PM a new player and talk about trump and since the player is new they wont know about the different chats and talk politics publicly and earn themselves moderator attention. In the "best case" scenario for the troll, the new player will get silenced or have power abuse inflicted on them by a poorly trained mod or because of overall confusion in pub especially on a day when there are multiple offenders before the new player even joined. I can think of 1000 ways this can go wrong.

And that's another thing, most people who are trouble makers don't actually care about these proposed rule changes, and some even look forward to it. They are daring you to do it because it will be entertainment for them, a fun way to fuck around with mods and players alike, and navigate the new "playing field". As a self proclaimed troll god this proposed rule barely if at all will affect me. I don't troll by talking about religion or politics, i troll by criticizing people truthfully and not sugar coating it. So telling you not to do it is actually not about me or for my benefit, it's because i'm trying to protect the game and because there are better ways to do things.

You have extremists saying moderate 6-8 broad categories of thought, and other extremists saying have complete and utter free speech. Am I the only fucking moderate here? a troll god is your moderate? sad.

My moderate position is if the majority of players want rules in the game for speech, do a poll on that first, and if that is the case then moderate extremes of speech, such as racism/sexism. I proposed a case for why you can do this in previous threads, about how it has to do with the values trench wars wants to represent and support etc, and how racism/sexism are societal effectors not just individual ones, as well you can easily define racism/sexism.

If the majority of players want free speech however, then that's good because so far trench wars is the only zone i know with so much chat protection (spec vs. pub chat). In that case all mods have to ensure is that no one is being harassed by a ignore evader. I remember a time when evading ignores and cross zone speech would earn you a netban. Harassment is not cool. Once you're ignored don't be desperate for their attention.

Lastly a poll of this nature will have skewed results because its volunteer based. Not everyone in the zone will be represented. Unless you can get 200 votes on it, it will be skewed. Look up statistics and the problem with doing volunteer based experiments vs. random selection. Volunteers are the people who care most about the issue. So you will have all these people like RAB who want you to do this going there and voting yes, and some trolls voting no, while the majority of the trench wars population wont care enough to take the time to vote.

And what kind of poll only offers two options? Your poll needed 10 options, alternatives. Keep the yes and no, but add other suggestions idiot. To only consider what Rab said after 10 pages of different suggestions shows you are bias and an asshole. You could have made one of the options 3. Should we only moderate racism/sexism like we were supposed to in the first place, in which case if we did our jobs properly we wouldn't be here making this dumb poll.

You guys couldn't even crack down on racism, to this day you have abusive mods going after spam and ignoring racism, when spam is fixed with an ?ignore and ignore evade is fixed with a ban if it's cross zone. Meanwhile, racism is totally overlooked in all instances. If you focus on getting players, there would be 1 troll for every 100 people and it would hardly matter anymore, and some of the trolls would re-convert to playing the game because it's fun again.

[Rab]

^ why is this guy not banned yet

[Falconeer]

Shh Hoch 2.0

[Dierienow]

If you allow the smallest of discrimination to begin with, you will end up with the worst discrimination eventually. Example: when was it considered acceptable to make fun of someone's skill level? Maybe they are playing quite well to their own abilities and time played, yet people will often insult your skill. I think people think it's fair game because its 'something you choose' but it isn't really.

Therefore if you allow this sort of discrimination, which is not at all bannable, then you've opened up the door for all sorts of discrimination imo. Are we going to ban all that and not other kinds of people hating? Fair enough, but then it's only a matter of time before someone gets offended and kicks it up a notch.

The problem I see with isms is that you are offending an entire group with one blow. You are not even individualizing the insult. But then you run into the problem here on TW that some groups are smaller or less vocal than others, so what could be an insult to an entire community is only effecting maybe 1 or 2 people. If you can somehow frame it that they are making a choice, mentally ill, going against some unknowable divine agent, etc. Then you are effectively legitimizing hate and discrimination.

Personally I think we should respect the rights of all people equally. If you're going to punish one thing, punish them all. Otherwise you will have the opposite intended effect. If you disagree with someone's sexuality, religion, gender, etc why is that any more criticizable than say, the lack of contraceptive use in poorer countries, the rampant corruption that people allow in their countries, etc. Yet the latter two would be perceived as racist. Africans not using contraception isn't ever their fault. When the politician dupes the sleepy public, it's not the people's fault of course! But when a single transgender or bisexual individual is around this game, suddenly there are so many ways to make them hated and put them at fault. So let me get this straight.. individuals are responsible for their actions, but groups of individuals aren't? So all I need is to be around a bunch of other idiots and I'm safe from the persecution of the individual? Of course, everyone knows this is exactly how it works.

I say just ban anything that's even the least bit polarizing. Focus on what's in common because we will endlessly and illogically divide ourselves into minorities to be persecuted and majorities to dissolve personal responsibility. If you don't break the cycle, starting with the smallest discriminatory comments, then the aggregated hate eventually builds up into something much worse. Everyone is equal, everyone gets to be treated without discrimination, and nobody gives a flying fuck if some book you read leads you to believe otherwise.

addendum: Religion is just a tool for social control, and since we're individuals responsible for our own stupidity, I'm sure people here will readily admit that. The bible tells you to hate gays because birth rate/population is a huge factor in the success of your empire in those days. And there is no natural reason why two guys can't fuck. If anal on a girl is natural how wouldn't it be on a guy. If your religious text allows for the discrimination of certain people, maybe it's not worthy of its holy status.

just kidding. God totally exists and he definitely cares where you put your fleshy feel-good rod. Welp, see ya later!

Let's *clap* All *clap* Take *clap* Responsibility *clap*... no? I'm the only one clapping? Okay.. =(

[Rab]

Because none of it is relevant to a 2d spaceship game. You're ruining it with your constant arguing, go argue on twitter instead.

[Dierienow]

Faggots, it is my god-given right to insult people on a video game, as per the Bible's exact instructions. Incitus 13:37: Thou shalt not pass up an opportunity to lash a noob with thy tongue.

Thanks, Jesus.

[Dierienow]

Forgot that y'all (as in, 99.99% of people in the world) are raising families. I'll go easier next time. That's my bad.

[Sulla]

noooo

[Falconeer]

This is not the lobby of the game (somewhere you talk before entering a zone), if it was then you have a case for banning all speech unrelated to: looking for players, asking for help, or questions about the game. But instead it's the actual chat within the game.

Ban anything polarizing? you realize you are all extremists with that methodology? right? Just like atheism is the extreme position opposite of religious fanaticism. This is going to lead to serious issues, defining what is polarizing, leaving it up to the personal preference of the mod on duty which then results in people being censored just because they are disliked or favoritism. You are basically going to run a dictatorship now. Which means you'll eventually have more serious problems than trolls, hackers will start drawing their attention to this enclave of tyrants and would love to take you guys down a notch or two, that is if the game doesn't die off before then. Good luck.

[Dierienow]

I think everybody should take responsibility for themselves. You have a point about the mods/staff and the slippery slope of free speech, so why not moderate yourself and stop trolling, stop provoking people, etc. That way extreme measures don't need to be taken. But as you said you'll NEVER stop trolling in your quest to "find good people" (lol..) so what do you expect? It's not just for you but every troll, this is what I'm saying about personal responsibility. If people refuse to moderate themselves, don't be surprised when others do it for you. And if you're concerned about dictatorship well, you'll be happy to know much of the world is ok with dictatorships as long as they do a good job. I'm sure there are people here who can not only spend some time moderating the game, but also do a better job than the current staff who I agree cannot be trusted to moderate this game properly. So, my solution, is that trolls take responsibility themselves and we can make progress, first and foremost that is my preferred solution. But since people are fallible at best, and actively going against the grain at worst, I think a proper moderation system run by competent staff is a suitable alternative for making this game a much more welcoming place. I feel like I'd extend the vote to also include personal attacks, which are usually very thinly veiled and easy to determine, but staff turns a blind eye. Also note that with proper, no-nonsense rules enforced by a competent authority, it is self-moderation feature. Nobody wants to be banned so they will take an extra second to think how their message will come across and maybe make them backspace instead. Is that really such a bad thing? The way you present it is so dystopian and appealing to higher values that have no place which to me suggests you'd really, really hate it if there was a way to shut you up, even temporarily. Games can have these rules, bro, and many of them do, and our society is still here. Much larger games too. But then, they don't have the insanely pro troll god "Falconeer" in those games, do they, to tell them of all the epic wisdom they'll be missing out on if they restrict the speech. Nor would they care because in their eyes, you're just another idiot player player to ban. Your hacker skills don't make you above the rules, unfortunate I know.

If you think there will be problems trying to ban trolls who adjust their tactics then I'd like to test that. Show me any chat log and I can point out who is the offending party, if the chat log is complete and accurate. Actually I'm sure most can, they just wouldn't be honest about it. If you're so concerned let's test it. But something has to change, people can't be allowed to keep creating a hostile environment that drives away new and old players alike. It's one change of many this zone requires, I agree with you there. Keep in mind I like free speech environment, it even benefits my style, I am not offended by nearly anything anyway. I would consider the world better off if others were the same also. But my belief doesn't automatically make others feel safe and welcome here, which is the primary concern imo. It used to be that TW was quite unique in its free speech, but nowadays you can find these alt-right debates nearly everywhere. Would it really be so bad to moderate it and see if we can get more players with this change and more ? Because I feel like there are thrice as many people who will run from such fringe/open environments as there are people who will be comfortable and at home, and this will ultimately be better for the game (and not just the people who benefit from having a platform due to the tiny population and poor moderation). Thoughts?