Pub: FreeSpirit

[qan]

Will be testing a preliminary version of this. Changes:

• Removed the solo terr bonus entirely.
• Removed award for taking the flag last second. It's its own reward and doesn't really need to be further incentivized, especially as it encourages just waiting until the end of the round to then rush the flag, which doesn't add value to the game. Can look at simply reducing it if people complain, but it's already quite a small amount ($500 at most for a last-second save).
• For each freq with 3 or more players, the Terr with the most time in FR will receive a bonus every 2min. It will be based on the percentage of the time spent in FR during the interval. Testing with $10 for every 1%. If they manage to spend the entire 2 minutes in FR, they receive an additional $500 bonus. (This all might be a bit high... have to see how it plays out. Then again, more than any other behavior in pub, BaseTerring should be incentivized, as it's the lifeblood of the game.) It'll also show a little graph representing your time in FR, which should hopefully further encourage Terrs to get in and stay in there.

Understanding the Pygmalion effect is a powerful way to positively affect those around us

Yes, it is. It's also important to understand in order to negatively affect those around us. For example: you think of everyone else as an idiot, and never try to understand them in any but the most facile way. So you receive idiotic replies, like Rab's. Then after all your condescension, you still expect people to bend over backward for you and treat you with thoughtful respect and deference, like you demand of your poor parents, who let you walk all over them.

When you ask, "What's wrong with being a troll?" -- nothing, really. It just turns you into the boy who cried wolf. Nobody will ever take you seriously again. Nor do they owe it to you to do so. The only way you can ever escape this horrible fate is to renounce your former self, which your pride will never allow. So, instead: lie in the bed you've made, and rage against the injustice of it all.

[Rab]

ty qan, sounds good, I'll give it a test over the next few days.

[Falconeer]

Will be testing a preliminary version of this. Changes:

• Removed the solo terr bonus entirely.
• Removed award for taking the flag last second. It's its own reward and doesn't really need to be further incentivized, especially as it encourages just waiting until the end of the round to then rush the flag, which doesn't add value to the game. Can look at simply reducing it if people complain, but it's already quite a small amount ($500 at most for a last-second save).
• For each freq with 3 or more players, the Terr with the most time in FR will receive a bonus every 2min. It will be based on the percentage of the time spent in FR during the interval. Testing with $10 for every 1%. If they manage to spend the entire 2 minutes in FR, they receive an additional $500 bonus. (This all might be a bit high... have to see how it plays out. Then again, more than any other behavior in pub, BaseTerring should be incentivized, as it's the lifeblood of the game.) It'll also show a little graph representing your time in FR, which should hopefully further encourage Terrs to get in and stay in there.

Yes, it is. It's also important to understand in order to negatively affect those around us. For example: you think of everyone else as an idiot, and never try to understand them in any but the most facile way. So you receive idiotic replies, like Rab's. Then after all your condescension, you still expect people to bend over backward for you and treat you with thoughtful respect and deference, like you demand of your poor parents, who let you walk all over them.

When you ask, "What's wrong with being a troll?" -- nothing, really. It just turns you into the boy who cried wolf. Nobody will ever take you seriously again. Nor do they owe it to you to do so. The only way you can ever escape this horrible fate is to renounce your former self, which your pride will never allow. So, instead: lie in the bed you've made, and rage against the injustice of it all.

You're missing the point... when i said "Whats wrong with being a troll" it was to point out that it shouldn't matter "what i am" to people because if it does then they are being prejudice based on labels. Someone's actions should be judged in the moment they make them if you want to judge them, what they do is what matters. In this context, rab is literally calling to ban a player as one of his solutions for playing the game. A dedicated player who rarely if ever types in pub.

What do you mean? i already stopped trolling in the game, so you can take a year or two to let that catch up with you, but either way, the ball is in your court now, which is where i like it. =)

Also you're the one who keeps bringing up intelligence levels... i don't think of you as an idiot or rab, or anyone else. i think though, you might be assuming too much about what i think, and in part my past interactions are at fault for that.... but keep in mind we can't really infer tone or feelings from text. Also FYI i don't demand respect from people, since i don't really need anything from people on a personal level (respect basically equals admiration). if i ask for help or something else it is because it is for the greater good of the community/game. i do like to point out hypocrisy and lack of good will in others sometimes if it becomes overly apparent, so maybe you think that's me being upset i'm being called a troll or a cunt and wanting to be treated better? You can treat me with the disrespect you think i deserve, after all, i am the one defending trolls here from bans, that would include your trolling of me.

[Rab]

plz challenge a bear to hand-to-hand combat, and lose.

[Falconeer]

plz challenge a bear to hand-to-hand combat, and lose.

Reported to PETA for animal abuse.

Also qan i find your whole argument flawed... (as in it only works if applied equally to everyone) you excuse rab for his behaviour by saying he's responding to me? okay, well my past behaviour was a result of you and others, and i was responding to them and their attacks. Except you probably play favorites and rationalize your own or others behaviours as okay and find reasons to justify it while condemning people you dislike for the exact same thing. If everyone is excused for being reactionary then why be upset? Rab is clearly the reason trolls exist, what he hates is a product of his own creation, it's cyclical.

As for why he came out so aggressively, Abrell says it?s human nature to try to excuse things that you do wrong. ?We rationalize our choices so that we can put ourselves in a positive light,? she says. ?If we see someone else doing something wrong, we attribute that to a character flaw. But if we?re the ones who do something wrong, we rationalize that it was due to the circumstances or a one-time thing, but not a global understanding of our character as a whole."

Why were you late to work? oh there was traffic, and all these problems, and it really wasn't my fault. But when bob is late to work fuck that guy he's a lazy jackass, we should fire him.

[Rab]

plz time travel back to the day the dinosaurs were wiped out.

[Rab]

Will be testing a preliminary version of this. Changes:

• Removed the solo terr bonus entirely.
• Removed award for taking the flag last second. It's its own reward and doesn't really need to be further incentivized, especially as it encourages just waiting until the end of the round to then rush the flag, which doesn't add value to the game. Can look at simply reducing it if people complain, but it's already quite a small amount ($500 at most for a last-second save).
• For each freq with 3 or more players, the Terr with the most time in FR will receive a bonus every 2min. It will be based on the percentage of the time spent in FR during the interval. Testing with $10 for every 1%. If they manage to spend the entire 2 minutes in FR, they receive an additional $500 bonus. (This all might be a bit high... have to see how it plays out. Then again, more than any other behavior in pub, BaseTerring should be incentivized, as it's the lifeblood of the game.) It'll also show a little graph representing your time in FR, which should hopefully further encourage Terrs to get in and stay in there.

Feedback
- FreeSpirit hasn't changed his behaviour at all. Other ideas welcome. It's still the primary purpose of this thread that his "leaving the FR and porting last minute" tactic messes up the basing game.
- A couple of us decided to hard-counter him by sharking, which works at low player numbers (FreeSpirit quits the game and comes back 15 mins later) but sharking with low numbers is considered bad form, and doesn't work at high numbers.
- The first 2 changes work fine as far as I can tell.
- The third change is more complicated, details below.

Third item details
- I only ever got 0% or 100%, attempts to get other values weren't possible due to another terr getting more (or the feature not working properly, I can't tell either way atm).
- "It'll also show a little graph representing your time in FR" sounds better than what it does, dunno if it's not drawing a graph or is working as intended.
- The messages looked like this:

TW-PubSystem> BaseTerr FR BONUS  ] 0%   +$0
TW-PubSystem> BaseTerr FR BONUS  ] 100%   +$1,500($500 PERFECT BONUS!)

- I think this incentive is a good change and should be improved.
- I think the dollar values are okay for now. It's too early to say if it should change.
- Sometimes I didn't get a reward and it wasn't clear why, the following points address that:
- I would like to see a diagram of where the definition of "FR" is.
- I would like to see the message regardless of whether I get the reward or not, so I can see what my percentage was, and so that terrs actually get the encouragement to go to FR if they're not going to FR!
- I would like the message to include my rank. Was I #1, #2, #3, etc?.
- 2 terrs is a popular configuration and I think it's not fair that only one of them gets a reward. This might be addressed by some sort of scaling like with poker rewards, but it might just be simpler to reward top 2. Or maybe a hybrid like #1 = 100%, #2 = 90%, #3 = 50%, #4+ = 0.
- How is a tie resolved?
- I think "most attaches" is a better measurement than "most FR time" for ranking base terrs because it allows people to vote with their F7 for who is most useful. I think we have the ability because there's a "F7 Magnet" end-of-round bonus. To be F7 magnet and not get the new reward feels weird.

[Lupin]

How about increasing the time required to turnover flag? If it was say 3 seconds it'd give more time for the holding team to save it, ports weasels and all.

We should be mindful of ppl who find "stealing" the flag fun though. Honestly I just don't have that much of a problem with the mechanic.

[qan]

Regarding FreeSpirit, in the end, all we can do is incentivize/deincentivize behavior. I don't think it's anyone's position to (officially) tell others how to play pub (though of course there are some compromises on that). You can make it easier/better to do certain things and harder/worse to do others, but beyond that, if you sacrifice freedom too much, it leaves one part of the population deeply unsatisfied. It may not seem like it sometimes, but the current state of affairs is a result of a lot of balance over the years between freedom, competition and fun. Short-change one of these too much and you piss off a lot of people, basically.

Regarding the turnover time, think it's set to 2 seconds with very low population. Maybe needs to be back to 3? It scales up to 4 with larger crowds. Some of the long rounds go on a bit long, though, so maybe the scaling flag turnover time is not a good mechanic, and it should go back to 3 across the board. (Weasels are an exception; they always require 5 seconds to confirm a flag hold.)

Bugs: There were a couple of bugs to do with ints/floats that resulted in the 0 or 100% bug, should be fixed next update. Graph not printing was also a dumb oversight on my part.

Have to think more about multiple terrs. I was thinking about this before I put in the current implementation, and decided on this as the simplest. Lacking a decent formula, I went with this, in other words.

If anyone can come up with a solid and detailed way to split the bonus based on several terrs (or 2 max), would be interested to hear.

Ties currently are handled poorly. Luck. If you're first in the collection, you win.

Seeing rank would be a cool idea, especially if this is shown to be a successful mechanic/worth the effort.

Most attaches, most kills in base and fewest deaths is the current determiner for the best terr award (which is the same as F7 Magnet -- alternate novelty name). Currently not tracking overall time in FR so it's not a factor. BIET was talking about maybe tracking this for all players (milestones based on it?), which could be an interesting motivator. Giving sharks a part of the FR bonus might also be interesting.

Good brainstorm. Think this could be a good feature.

[Rab]

Graph doesn't change based on percentage.

TW-PubSystem> BaseTerr FR BONUS  [####################] 96%   +$958
TW-PubSystem> BaseTerr FR BONUS  [####################] 88%   +$875
TW-PubSystem> BaseTerr FR BONUS  [####################] 75%   +$750
TW-PubSystem> BaseTerr FR BONUS  [####################] 33%   +$333

[Falconeer]

Regarding FreeSpirit, in the end, all we can do is incentivize/deincentivize behavior. I don't think it's anyone's position to (officially) tell others how to play pub (though of course there are some compromises on that). You can make it easier/better to do certain things and harder/worse to do others, but beyond that, if you sacrifice freedom too much, it leaves one part of the population deeply unsatisfied. It may not seem like it sometimes, but the current state of affairs is a result of a lot of balance over the years between freedom, competition and fun. Short-change one of these too much and you piss off a lot of people, basically.

well said

also to go back on an early thing you said. "It's also important to understand in order to negatively affect those around us. For example: you think of everyone else as an idiot, and never try to understand them in any but the most facile way. So you receive idiotic replies, like Rab's. Then after all your condescension, you still expect people to bend over backward for you and treat you with thoughtful respect and deference."

it's almost like you're projecting here... you are actually very condescending toward me, you constantly bring up intelligence with me, so i can assume it's *you* who thinks he is smarter... and you have never tried to understand me in any but the most facile way... you also demanded respect from me in our forum PMs, and without respect you refuse to work together on projects that could have benefited the community.

Even though I've changed a few things i have a feeling you will never come around... you don't come across as very altruistic, and right now i don't believe you care about the community more than you do your pride or yourself. i suspect you do things to help the zone to increase your reputation and image as being good... in one sense at least you are making positive contributions, but it isn't quite altruism. In that regard you would actually be harmful to the game if this were true, because the game requires working with others, people you may not like. You seem to have an unwillingness to mend fences with people especially if you believe they broke them and they are at fault. Your antagonism toward trolls is troubling, but i also suspect it's not really toward trolls, you seem really happy with rab, so it's probably just personal toward me. Either way... i don't really get why people want to lead communities when they really *hate* (yes hate is a good word) 50-90% of that community and look down on the people within it. Maybe that is your selfless act... or maybe its a trade-off between reputation (from the people you do respect) and putting up with scum like me? you tell me.

keep in mind i've used none concrete language here, it's just brainstorming.

there is also this, i don't know what to make of this. https://ibb.co/VtRNz2v hopefully frog is talking out his ass.

[Rab]

plz try to sail around the world in a boat with a hole in it

[Falconeer]

plz try to sail around the world in a boat with a hole in it

Rab is embracing being a troll, no more act of being a victim that wants to ban everyone?

[qan]

Oops, yep, graph should be fixed next update. Thanks.


Falc, I appreciate that you're willing to put in a lot of time to type out replies, but your past behavior coupled with the length means that people just aren't going to read or think about your posts. If you can learn to write for readers, rather than writing for your own pleasure, you might have better luck getting people to engage. As it stands I think I speak for most people when I say that I just can't be bothered to do anything beyond the most cursory skim if every time I reply I get 3-4 walls of text in return. There's just not enough time in the day.

[Falconeer]

Oops, yep, graph should be fixed next update. Thanks.


Falc, I appreciate that you're willing to put in a lot of time to type out replies, but your past behavior coupled with the length means that people just aren't going to read or think about your posts. If you can learn to write for readers, rather than writing for your own pleasure, you might have better luck getting people to engage. As it stands I think I speak for most people when I say that I just can't be bothered to do anything beyond the most cursory skim if every time I reply I get 3-4 walls of text in return. There's just not enough time in the day.

eh that's fine, i respect that you're busy and prioritizing your time and i don't really want to focus on past disagreements or crappy ways of relating. hopefully you can find some time to read my apology on discord, and consider it sincere.