Test a Cram Reset in ?go base

[Jessup]

Last post tonight on this for me.. I don't think a double TEK would effect the cram clock adversely.. both terrs are below the lines when they respawn.

The possible exploits I see happening are the frustrating part I'm realizing.


Team A is crammed out of base with 3:30 to go before they lose. They know they will be awarded a reset warp and are feeling they still have a slight longshot to win getting warped in.

Team B at 2:59 decides.. "NOPE" .. They form lines(losing the cram formations and instead go to posts on either side. Sharks mine the entrance as spiders fire away.. terr warps out of base and kills reset warp right before it happens. .



This would be a risky move but a line of spiders and sharks could effectively hold off a team fairly easily for 20-30 seconds while terr that purposely warps has to rush back to base.

Just playing out exploit scenarios in my head. 15 minute game, 3 minute waits for resets. Denying reset through terr warps by flag holding team would probably be a viable option used often.

Sort of seeing how messy a bit of business this all could be. There could be ways still to perfect it if flag possession was implemented too. I don't have energy or time to atm though to think about this anymore. It is much more complex to implement that it seems at first thought .

[Jessup]

Was too tired last night. I get why qan is using the upper base flag bar now as reset factor. Ideally my original post I did with the isolated coords would be the best as that is the position needed to be broken to end a cram but understand the code issue. I was trying to help deal with the constant reset qan was explaining was happening using the mid bar which is definitely not ideal, That is why I was saying lower base lines in my last posts would resolve the constant retrigger issue. The problem with my posts at end was it was not nulling the warp activation clock once it was set into play so left a hole in my proposal. I'm sure qan is aware of this issue.

It seems 2 coord positions need to work in tandem with this idea for it to work properly.

1- a lower coord position line used to activate the clock countdown with any terr below it

2- a line to cross counted as the cram break position to nullify the countdown with any terr above it which then would turn the entire countdown off.

Having it constantly resetting and being retriggered within the base during the whole game is not really ideal at all. We want this function to be turned off most of the game. Sorry I was unclear and made some logic mistakes last night on later posts.. was too tired,

[qan]

A lower coord isn't really necessary. I get why you'd want to use it, but it's the same as starting the clock at a TeK. Using a single line and no TeK just makes it a little more simple, while doing effectively the same thing, with only a few situations where it would give slightly different results. It should be good enough, in other words. But we can see how it plays and fix it with a more complex solution if it seems to be giving undesired behavior.

Anyone had a chance to test this? I did some brief testing a few nights ago and seemed to work fine, but nothing detailed.

[Jessup]

I have not tested it out unfortunately. I thought you were saying the flag bar was constantly activating and deactivating the warp clock on and off and always was running so in theory if a terr was below it for 3 minutes and in base it would do a warp of both teams while no cram was happening which would not be a good thing obviously. I would love to see it so I can comment on how it performs lol.

[qan]

It's a pretty unlikely scenario, though, for a Terr to be inside FR for a full 3 minutes, smashed into left/right bottom corner, but neither dies nor retakes the side/goes above the bar.

If using a second line or TeKs, you definitely still need to think about the possibility of both Terrs dying, and also whether the flag is touched before or after. With this, time only begins after the Terr is forced down below the bar and remains down for a full 3m. Essentially is pinned down. If they were pinned in FR vs pinned outside cram the effect would be roughly the same: one team has reached a position of extreme domination, and a reset is probably an acceptable outcome. Again, can see if it causes problems, but I think for the most part this should give us what we want.

[Rab]

I think it's too big a change and people don't like it. I also think having things differ between base and bd/lb is a bad thing.

[ogron]

Freq 0 will complete hold in 10 seconds
         mvp> rofl
Freq 0 held successfully
Go go go!!!
   Kokopelli> exciting
       Soild> wtf
         Rab> gg bot
     porkjet> lol
       Soild> im not gonna play 5 games in a row
  SpookedOne> LOOOL
         mvp> ez pz
1:wolven creed> it's banzi
Result of Freq 0 vs. Freq 1: 09:56 - 10:00
,---------------------------------+------+------+-----------+------+------+-----+-----------+----.
|                               K |    D |   TK |    Points |   FT |  TeK | RPD |    Rating | LO |
|                          ,------+------+------+-----------+------+------+-----+-----------+----+
| Freq 0                  /   358 |  360 |   25 |     58691 |    7 |    6 | 361 |     15237 |  0 | 
+------------------------'        |      |      |           |      |      |     |           |    |
|  AIRWOLF                     58 |   34 |    0 |      8891 |    1 |    1 |     |      6501 |  0 | 
|  Beast                       17 |   82 |   15 |      4940 |    1 |    0 | 2.3 |     -5140 |  0 | 
|  bitsaver                    59 |   36 |    0 |      9377 |    0 |    1 |     |      6672 |  0 | 
|  hellkite                    67 |   45 |    0 |      9076 |    0 |    1 |     |      6625 |  0 | 
|  JacKieChan>                 20 |   13 |    0 |      4179 |    0 |    1 |     |    -18490 |  0 | 
|  Rab                         14 |   69 |    5 |      3352 |    2 |    0 | 2.5 |      -968 |  0 | 
|  Tiny                        64 |   33 |    5 |      9880 |    1 |    2 |     |     15590 |  0 | 
|  Unlimited                   59 |   48 |    0 |      8996 |    2 |    0 |     |      4447 |  0 | 
+---------------------------------+------+------+-----------+------+------+-----+-----------+----+
|                          ,------+------+------+-----------+------+------+-----+-----------+----+
| Freq 1                  /   335 |  361 |    3 |     54745 |    8 |   13 | 303 |     28296 |  1 | 
+------------------------'        |      |      |           |      |      |     |           |    |
|  Anonym                      62 |   55 |    0 |      9737 |    2 |    0 |     |      6625 |  0 | 
|  Banks                       59 |   34 |    0 |      7731 |    0 |    1 |     |      6534 |  0 | 
|  Markmrw                     48 |   51 |    0 |      7513 |    1 |    2 |     |      2067 |  0 | 
|  mvp                         81 |   58 |    0 |     10732 |    1 |    2 |     |     11277 |  0 | 
|  porkjet                     10 |   61 |    0 |      2713 |    2 |    1 | 2.5 |       227 |  0 | 
|  Soild                        3 |   61 |    3 |      2657 |    0 |    1 | 2.5 |      -371 |  1 | 
|  SpookedOne                  26 |    6 |    0 |      6151 |    0 |    0 |     |     -3707 |  0 | 
|  Tripin                      46 |   35 |    0 |      7511 |    2 |    6 |     |      5644 |  0 | 
`---------------------------------+------+------+-----------+------+------+-----+-----------+----'
Freq 1 wins the game!
Statistics url: http://www.trenchwars.org/base/129230
  SpookedOne> SO LAM
       Banks> gg
   Kokopelli> haha
       Soild> gg
  SpookedOne> yall shouldve had it
MVP: Tiny!
1:beam> lol
        Tiny> good thing i didnt mvp or this would be ackward
A new game will start when two people message me with !cap -BaseBot
     porkjet> probably need to work the bot to not warp if a team has 1 min left
Tiny will cap, use !cap Tiny to second
       Ogron> cud b gud idea

Qan, any way to program that in?

[qan]

Should be in now. Heh, I remember bringing that up. But was before any implementation was decided.

Should give this a bit longer and then see what the verdict is, if we should keep it. As you're one of the biggest players of base, Og, I think your opinion is generally worn more in the subject than most. (Hey, would be a cool idea: let people weigh in votes based on arena playtime.) But need to hear from others too. Rab, any more to add about why you don't think it works?

Going on mini vacation, hope the update didn't break anything

[ogron]

I mean, it's not up to me. Depends on what basers who play a lot think of it. I like it, but if 70% of players hate the warp reset, it should be removed.

They definitely need to give it a chance, and should run it another month in ?go base, then see what the verdict is.

I wouldn't let anyone bully you into ending the experiment early, and it might grow on some people once they see it in action a bit more.

If not, and sentiment is still too negative, I'd just remove it. It was a test, not a concrete change written in stone.

[Rab]

Rab, any more to add about why you don't think it works?

- Generally, it does what it's supposed to.
- When it happens, it results in "wtf is this shit", let's have a debate about settings instead of playing the game, sorta thing. So it's an interruption which detracts from the game. That might just be because it's new and most people haven't played it yet, so I've nothing against letting the experiment run for longer.
- It happened in a way that denied us a win, which Claus already set out, and maybe you already fixed?
- It also happened when the cram had just been broken, the enemy had entered fr and were below the bar, then we all got warped out of fr. It wasn't necessary.
- I personally don't like differences between base/bd/lb/dtb, now at the start of every game there has to be a discussion about what settings we're playing, because there are different changes in different places and no forum post explaining what has been changed and where. It all needs consolidating IMO. See the TWDT !sub bug for why lol. Whatever settings we go with, people need time to adjust to it before TWL, so we need standardisation asap.
- There was a vague thought that this might rescue games that would otherwise have been ruined by a newbie cap. That has turned out not to be true. Newbie caps still ruin base. I used that new feature to second a cap for the first time yesterday, so we need to get everyone used to using that.

[Rab]

And the settings I think we should consolidate everything to is as follows:

- Terr: no team greens
- Terr: burst every 1 min, port every 2 mins
- possibly, Terr: should be able to green their own bursts
- Shark: alternating shrap spawn
- Shark: should be able to green reps
- Shark: should not be able to green shrap
- Spiders: should be able to green full charge
- Lanc: consolidate, don't care which settings
- No cram reset

[WillBy]

I like the cram warp generally.

One thing I thought might make it more "fair" to the team losing their cram hold would be to award a 30s score bonus. Not quite sure how that would actually play out, but there should be some recognition of a successful hold.

[project dragon]

I like the cram warp generally.

One thing I thought might make it more "fair" to the team losing their cram hold would be to award a 30s score bonus. Not quite sure how that would actually play out, but there should be some recognition of a successful hold.

I thought about that, but figured if they can hold the flag for 3 minutes then I don't know if they need a reward....
If possible, maybe a smaller time bonus (<10 sec), or replenish terr burst/port or 5-shrap sharks?

Also!
Doors on the bottom half, just open the entire bottom of FR after 3 minutes. No warping business. Just doors. New doorwarp strats.
Doors Doors Doors.

[SpookedOne]

Rather yall allow a lev after 3 minutes then reset game in middle of round.

[Jessup]

I tested it out. What qan has made actually is ok. The only flaw I see is that after a break that took sometime to achieve the terr often is forced into a low position below the bar. This leaves sometimes seconds to spare before a reset warp. Having a warp happen after a successful break is frustrating to play and see. Even though its frustrating, a reset sets both sides on an even setting again so logically it is fair. The real question I suppose is if people can accept this fairly massive change to the game dynamic. Hardcore basers seem to not like this at all. The system is working quite well though. It is almost impossible during a flag battle for a terr to not go over bar once in 3 minutes. The delayed break though which leaves 20 seconds or less is a bit problematic. It can really break up the game action as right after a break is one of the most intense parts of basing games. Get in base and 10 seconds after, warp, ug, lol. I'd say for what was suggested and now has been programed this is a success!! GJ qan!! I'd love to see an option implanted to use this in ?go base we could vote on before each game.