Top leaders of tw

[Ephemeral]

True, true.
But IRL it’s the ‘connections’ that cause different behavior. If you screw up IRL, you never know when it will come back to haunt you. Years later you could be applying for a job, chatting with someone at a party, or be standing in line at the grocery store and someone can hold you responsible for something stupid you did years before. You are explicably apart of the community you live in.

But this community is independent of everything else. It is not like you are going to be in some AOL chat room and have someone recognize you and call you out for cheating in SS. It is not like you are going to sign up for a new newsgroup and they tell you, ‘wait a minute, didn’t you cause some problems in TW?’ Our TW personalities are ephemeral and independent from all other aspects of our lives, online or offline.

[Kuukunen]

True, true.
But IRL it’s the ‘connections’ that cause different behavior. If you screw up IRL, you never know when it will come back to haunt you. Years later you could be applying for a job, chatting with someone at a party, or be standing in line at the grocery store and someone can hold you responsible for something stupid you did years before. You are explicably apart of the community you live in.

Unless you move to a different country. Or change your name and appereance. It's much harder to change identity, but it's not impossible.

But this community is independent of everything else. It is not like you are going to be in some AOL chat room and have someone recognize you and call you out for cheating in SS. It is not like you are going to sign up for a new newsgroup and they tell you, ‘wait a minute, didn’t you cause some problems in TW?’ Our TW personalities are ephemeral and independent from all other aspects of our lives, online or offline.

That is true. I did speak a bit too generally about the whole internet when I was meaning mostly Subspace. Over the internet you can be part of many communities, having a different identity in each. (Not necessarily though, they can be linked.) But only if someone doesn't plan to stay on the community, then he's truly without any responsibility.

[geekbot]

I would call that more a babysitting challenge then a leadership challenge.

I think many of the people named in this thread are named because they have real leadership skills more than just babysitting. I don't know much about Sumpson but look at Quirion/Basing Crew. That's a great example of a specific vision of how to run a squad and develop players. Paladen has a pretty specific picture, you could call it a "goal" of what they are about. That comes from leadership. Yes, it's different than real life but motivating people and creating a team nonetheless.

It's easy in SS to provide consequences- bring out the axe. The early days of RB we had very real recruiting/axing criteria based on loyalty, being active, etc. That came from and was enforced by PaulO/FoR.

[Ephemeral]

I can't speak to the squads you mentioned, since I have not been on them.

But since 1998 when I started, it is rare that I have seen a squad with a mission statement or vision beyond ‘lets kick some ass’.
The few successful ones I have seen usually only have one or two 'movers and shakers' who basically carry the entire squad. Most often they burn out and grow disillusioned with the immaturity of the players.
Consider the attitudes about racism for an example of an issue that causes good leaders to give up trying. Or look at some of the ‘better’ squads who always seem to be tied to cheating allegations. Players simply do not consider that their behavior reflects back upon the squad as a whole. Of those leaders mentioned in this thread, how many have you heard say something like, ‘I can’t control what people in my squad do’? How many are still highly motivated and have not burned out? How many have you seen that are willing to accept responsibility for their entire squad’s behavior?
Consider how rare it is to see a squad captain put his foot down and say, ‘no, we aren’t going to appeal that’ or ‘no, stop making excuses on how we lost’ or ‘no, stop bragging about how elite we are’? When was the last time you saw a squad who was willing to ‘reward’ loyalty? No, squads start and play those who excel at shooting a digital bullet across the screen, not those who care enough to show up for every game. Consider all the silly ‘Top’ threads in these forums. I saw no mention of people who cared enough to show up for every game. All I saw are people who had ship skills.

Look at the replies in this thread, how many people justified their leadership choices with examples of sportsmanship, honesty, grace, consideration, and integrity?

[Epinephrine]

I can't speak to the squads you mentioned, since I have not been on them.

But since 1998 when I started, it is rare that I have seen a squad with a mission statement or vision beyond ‘lets kick some ass’.
The few successful ones I have seen usually only have one or two 'movers and shakers' who basically carry the entire squad. Most often they burn out and grow disillusioned with the immaturity of the players.
Consider the attitudes about racism for an example of an issue that causes good leaders to give up trying. Or look at some of the ‘better’ squads who always seem to be tied to cheating allegations. Players simply do not consider that their behavior reflects back upon the squad as a whole. Of those leaders mentioned in this thread, how many have you heard say something like, ‘I can’t control what people in my squad do’? How many are still highly motivated and have not burned out? How many have you seen that are willing to accept responsibility for their entire squad’s behavior?
Consider how rare it is to see a squad captain put his foot down and say, ‘no, we aren’t going to appeal that’ or ‘no, stop making excuses on how we lost’ or ‘no, stop bragging about how elite we are’? When was the last time you saw a squad who was willing to ‘reward’ loyalty? No, squads start and play those who excel at shooting a digital bullet across the screen, not those who care enough to show up for every game. Consider all the silly ‘Top’ threads in these forums. I saw no mention of people who cared enough to show up for every game. All I saw are people who had ship skills.

Look at the replies in this thread, how many people justified their leadership choices with examples of sportsmanship, honesty, grace, consideration, and integrity?

We did all of that on Elusive. We worked actively to make sure that we would not brag, taunt, nor would we be big gloaters (beyond being happy) when we won. Players who did not adhere to our standards of not being jerks were axed. We had a group of generally older players (with 1 or 2 exceptions) and were quite mature, so much so that a few 'good' players left us because we were 'too boring'. Loyalty was always rewarded, as players who always showed were guaranteed (and consistantly given) playing time in games. Squadhopping off Elusive was thus minimal. We kept our core group for a long time and most of that transferred over to Syndicate. Leadership was also rewarded, and our a-cs had a visible stake in coaching the squad and making sure our strict standards were maintained. This carried over when 2 of our A-Cs became captains of Syndicate and were ready to take up the mantle.

Just because you haven't ever seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist! As for why I put down Crown of Thorns, his squad Vulch also followed quite strict standards although the mission statement for that was to have fun without being jerks.

[Ephemeral]

Just because you haven't ever seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist! As for why I put down Crown of Thorns, his squad Vulch also followed quite strict standards although the mission statement for that was to have fun without being jerks.

I am pretty sure I never said nor implied it didn't exist, only that it was rare or the exception.
And yes, I count CoT as a good person and a friend. I didn't weigh in on his leadership abilities because I was never on a squad with him. However, I would absolutely count him among those people who have burned out.

[geekbot]

I think good leaders in life are the rare exception as well.

The things Epi listed are the kinds of structure and environment I was thinking of good leaders creating.

Not that I'm suggesting you're saying this, Ephemeral, but I don't think even great leaders have complete control over the people they're leading. And as an ideal I probably wouldn't call it control at all...but truly "leading" with people willing to follow. If you're a Christian (as I am) you might say that the ideal would be _serving_ with people willing to follow. In TW, squad leaders probabbly find themselves serving the needs/wants of their squad often.

Leading is hard, I would be burnt out on it pretty quickly.

[Ephemeral]

I think good leaders in life are the rare exception as well.

The things Epi listed are the kinds of structure and environment I was thinking of good leaders creating.

Not that I'm suggesting you're saying this, Ephemeral, but I don't think even great leaders have complete control over the people they're leading. And as an ideal I probably wouldn't call it control at all...but truly "leading" with people willing to follow. If you're a Christian (as I am) you might say that the ideal would be _serving_ with people willing to follow. In TW, squad leaders probabbly find themselves serving the needs/wants of their squad often.

Leading is hard, I would be burnt out on it pretty quickly.

I agree 100%. It is about commitment and that is where a mission statement comes into play. Everyone has the same objectives and wants to reach them.

And what is commitment? My opinion is it is about a willingness to do things that you often really don't want to do. I show commitment to my wife this way. Swinging by a florist and buying a few flowers isn't much of a commitment. But understanding that she would like me to help her with gardening and doing it even though I don't want to, is. A good leader does the same thing, sucks it up and does things they don't really want to do but do it 'for the team'.

[Ardour]

And thats why im Stor's gardener. I hate it but the grass looks horrible if it isint cut.

A good leader is someone thats prepared to do the right thing in all the situations. Treat no one special or above anyone else.

Say everyone on a squad suddenly hate one person and they all say they would leave if that person isint axed just because they hate that person. A leader that wanted to do the best for the squads survival would choose to axe that person even if they hadnt done anything wrong. I wouldnt define that as a good leader.

Is Rome worth one good man's life?