designing subarenas

[Kuukunen]

why the hell wanna destroy Continuum? FAGGASS

FAGASSS*

[Kolar]

why the hell wanna destroy Continuum? FAGGASS

I don't know why but that's what he (grelminar) told me a while back.

[Dr Brain]

I don't normally read these forums, but this thread was brought to my attention, and I feel I must settle the matter.

D1 has been right about everything he has stated, he's just missing a few things that I hope I can provide.

Firstly, let me state that I probably know grelminar better than anyone else that has posted here. Yes, he has some very strong ideas about computer related things, Linux vs. Windows is one of them. I learned a great deal about computer languages during a discussion he had on the faults of C++. He is very pro Linux and feels that it is a wonderful operating system. That, however, does not mean he has any plans to disable windows support.

First off, he can't. There is no Linux client, and at this rate, there probably never will be. You can't very well make a zone Linux client only if there is no Linux client. That basically shoots Kolar's statement out of the sky right there, but if you're still not convinced, read on.

Second off, he has no reason to. In his war of philosophy, you cannot force people to move. You have to convince them by showing them it's a better product. Linux and open source is all about choice. You aren't doing the open source movement any good if you take away choice. He wouldn't do what you claim because of the very things he believes.

Thirdly, you, Kolar, keep mentioning ASSS developers in the plural. This leads me to believe that you have no clue what you're really talking about. There is only one asss developer, and if you were paying attention, you'd know that.

The same kinds of rebuttals can be applied to the whole fragmenting of the biller. It's impossible and he really has no reason to want to anyhow.

And on to the real stuff...

ASSS can support more than 30. ASSS can support more than 50. ASSS can support at least 60. It was tested by Hockey Zone a couple of weeks ago. They got 65 players and no lag comas. Grelminar has said that he believes the coma bug to be fixed. That said, there is no reason that ASSS cannot support as many players as subgame can.

I have been the most outspoken opponent to zones adopting ASSS. I'm also the only sysop that's ever run a ASSS zone for any length of time, and I am 100% committed to the server system. I believe that I am the only person qualified to give ASSS a fair evaluation. People on the outside don't see what it can do, and people on the inside don't see its shortcomings.

My opinion is that ASSS is not for current and established zones. The lag coma bug may be fixed, but that was not the only bug. There are others and they will take time to track down. A zone shouldn't switch unless what they stand to gain is greater than what they stand to lose. The established zones have gotten along without ASSS and have a steady population. Moving to ASSS will not gain them many, if any, new players. ASSS should be considered by new zones with few players to lose and many players to gain if they create something unique with ASSS's opportunities.

[Kolar]

Great well then he must have been high or something while he was talking with me. I wouldn't say anything is undoable when it comes to programming, it's unlikely to happen but that's not the point here. I'm not making this up he did say all of this but if you say that's not where ASSS is leading too then fine, i'm not really worried about it anyways. I'm lazy when it comes to names and I know there's only one person.


It's something to be concerned about when grelminar is making these claims and plans... since he has been given special treatment and support from the comunity even if all of it was full bullshit.

Thirdly, you, Kolar, keep mentioning ASSS developers in the plural. This leads me to believe that you have no clue what you're really talking about. There is only one asss developer, and if you were paying attention, you'd know that.

There's no need to be rude here Dr Brain. If it's a sound peice of software then I will defer to our resident coders and developers to determine that.

[Kolar]

Look guys. I have no problem with people wanting to help run subspace and make it better. I'm only concerned about everyone working so hard on it and finally getting screwed over by some linux kid fanboy. I'm not insulting Grelminar because I don't know him but that's the way he was acting when talking to me. The ability of ASSS is not in question here, what is is the future of Subspace and what Grelminar plans on doing with any kind of control he has over the game. Insult me all you want, you gain nothing from it. I don't really care if it's unlikely to happen, but isn't it enough to question him knowing he did say this? If Qan and Distort say it will replace Subgame2 then I have nothing else to say on the matter. This is not something I've invested my time into learning.

[duel pasta]

Dr brain just owned everybody here except d1st0rt

[Cerium]

Isnt it great how a simple question gets turned into retarded conversations?

First off, I am not for or against ASSS, nor do I have any reason to go either way. However, as a developer, I can honestly say that it doesnt sound like something hed go through with. As someone already pointed out, theres no linux client, so basicly making ASSS block windows clients would prevent anyone from using the server. Not only would that drive zone owners back to subgame, but it would tarnish his internet reputation, and kill a project hes been working on for 3+ years. Not exactly something most developers would do. Ill believe this when I hear it from grel directly, or Kolar posts a log that doesnt look edited.

Secondly, Dr Brain, I have my doubts about ASSS running zones that effectively at the moment. Once you add on lots of modules and lots of people, I think any zone running it would be brought to its knees (whoops, endless loop in GenericPlugin#924814, server died). But this is a topic for another thread.

Finally, I dont feel like typing anymore. Fuck all of you, Im gonna go jerk off.

-C

[Kolar]

I have no log of it, I didn't take him seriously at the time. I wasn't on TW staff and I didn't know how much support ASSS had or if it was real. He was concerned if I was TW Staff or part of SSC actually, I don't know why though. There's no question about what he said. I hope he has changed his views on supporting windows and not destroying the game, however unlikely it is to happen so ASSS can move forward and we can get some new software out. I'm not against the project or people helping run the game, I'm not that deep into the SS comunity but I'd rather this be settled here and now.

[Kuukunen]

Few notes on this converstation:

First, people don't always fully mean what they say. If you Kolar have been the only one who he has told that thing, maybe he wasn't speaking the full truth. Do you always mean what you say 100%?


Second, people were bashing ASSS about the amount of people it can support. Things said were just idiotic.

Kolar: "ASSS will never be able to support our population, or even 50 people at one time."

D1ist0rt: "Considering that a population in the mid 30s was supported a year ago (August '04) and considerable advances have been made, including one that grelminar believes to have solved the reliable sync bug known as "lag comas" altogether. I am completely confident that ASSS can support 50 people right now, and to say that it will never be able to support Trench in my opinion is a little close-minded." <- I think he meant at least 50 people with that comment

Kolar: "going from 30 to 50 in 1 year seems to be a very small leap forward to me. I don't think TW's Sysops would use it because of that fact, ever if in 5 years it does support 100 or 200 people."

D1ist0rt: "I think you misinterpreted what I said about that. I don't mean that after a year it can only support 50 people, I was just using the number you provided."

Kolar: "Try to be more clear and don't bother with explaining your self if you got the point across. So after 1 year give or take a few days it can support 50 people rather then 30, or currently approximately 50 players continuously supported."

This is what I don't quite get. 50 people was the number Kolar made up and now he's using it as a fact and an argument against ASSS. D1st0rt said the coma bug is probably fixed, which was the cause (?) for the population limit. Now why on earth would the amount of people supported be 50, and why would it go up steadily when ASSS is developed?

I know this really didn't bring anything positive, but I just couldn't sit quietly in the corner. :/

[Kolar]

Kuukunen, he went on about windows, making a linux only biller and making ASSS linux only and was very clear about making both to not support Windows. I don't know or care how he could do this but I did not misinterpet what he said. There's also no way he could have explained his ideas the wrong way. If it sounds crazy fine, I dont give a shit, ask him about it because he sure as hell didn't explain his reasoning behind all of this to me so stop asking.


if Qan and Distort say it can support 50 players... they're the experts here. Distort's comments tends to suggest the development has been slow and without stability. The amount of players supported to me suggests that but again, I'm not involved or intrested in it anymore. I'm sure with enough time and support ASSS could compete with Subgame. There are other bugs and issues from what I've read that limits the number of people it can support and what the server can do, without crashing.

[Dr Brain]

Now why on earth would the amount of people supported be 50, and why would it go up steadily when ASSS is developed?

NOTE: Everyone seems to be thinking that the old 30 player limit was per zone. It wasn't. It was per arena. Please don't misunderstand.

It started out at 10 when ASSS was first deployed by Hyperspace. Big flop, but that's history. The bug was a horribly complicated one. It had multiple sources. One source of the bug was found, and the limit when up to about 15. Another was found. Went to 30. Stayed at 30 for a while. Grel says he fixed another bug and thinks it is the last bug.

...and I suppose it's possible that it wasn't fixed after all. But the test by Hockey Zone leads me to believe that the bug is gone for good. Besides, not many arenas get up to 70 players on a regular basis.

Cerium, I take it you're not a programmer by profession?

[D1st0rt]

Distort's comments tends to suggest the development has been slow and without stability.

This is not the intent at all of what I've been saying, I'm sorry that it was presented in a fashion that made you think that. Here's how I break it down for myself:

-You said it can't support 50, and will never support TW
-I said I was sure it could support 50 right now citing the 30 supported a year ago and the fact that since

considerable advances have been made

(including the apparent elimination of "Lag Comas", the major problem involved) 50 should be no problem, but that I wasn't sure about anything much higher because there had been no large-scale testing done at that time.

I hope this clears this little misunderstanding up for everyone, I will try to communicate more effectively in the future

[Shas'la T'au Kais]

Just out of interest, are there any active ASSS zones at the moment?


Also: Does anyone have a link to a page where I can read more about ASSS? (I'd like to see what's so different..)

[D1st0rt]

http://sscx.net/asss

and
http://wiki.minegoboom.com

There technically aren't any active zones using it right now, Hyperspace is under renovation after being active a while and HZ is still in a testing phase.

[grelminar]

This is the strangest thread I've seen in a while.

For the record: I have no idea what Kolar is talking about. I don't remember ever talking to him, and that name doesn't appear anywhere in my subspace or icq logs. Perhaps it was someone pretending to be me (although I can't imagine why anyone would want to do that). I never said any of the things he said I said, and besides, they make no sense anyway:

First of all, the OS that you run the game or billing server on has no bearing on the game client. Second, it would be rather stupid to disallow windows clients from connecting, since the only two game clients mature enough to play with both run on windows. Third, I have no plans to write a biller, on any OS. Fourth, I have no power over anything. All I do is work on some little piece of software. Other people can choose to use it or not, and decide how to use it. There are no conspiracies.

By the way, I'm 99% sure that TW uses the multiple subgame/redirection feature. This could be easily confirmed by sniffing packets while connecting to TW, and noticing how many distinct IP addresses are involved (though be sure to disregard player count ping packets).