An end of an Era

[Ephemeral]

Hmm. Having dedicated quite a few hours into what I honestly believe to be a step toward improving pub -- if I may be so bold as to say, far more than you, Moot, despite your committee -- I'm not exactly happy with this result. I have some pride in the continuation of Guano's original bot that began by just limiting levis and private freqs into the development of the timed game, and do consider it to be for the best.

This is interesting as an experiment, but I don't believe the right move. There are two attractions for pub, at least for me: the chaotic spawnfest which focuses on dueling and is quite a good time on occasion, though for a limited time, and the more competetive base-oriented pub where new players learn how to base. Of the two, I don't think I'm the only one that prefers the second most of the time.

Times have changed greatly. Old players are getting bored of pubbing. The veteran basers you speak of that will show people how to base are few and far between. I don't think you're going to see teamwork just springing up from nowhere when most people are interested in just making a kill or two. I'm not sure why, but the flag by itself was just more valuable 5 years ago. These days it's rare that anyone gives a damn about it unless there's some goal to it -- holding for such and such a time adding that value. Yes, we have a bot telling us to do it, but capturing and holding the flag is not its own reward anymore. You say it's not fully explained by zone staff: but is capturing the flag without the bot explained either? The game is naturally absurd.

You say we'll have all types of gameplay across different arenas. Looks like no kind of basing across all arenas to me, as one person pointed out above. Ridiculous.

Encourages teamwork with all ships? I just don't see it. How do you "have plenty of fun working in teams" if there's no real objective -- if people don't value getting the flag today as they did 5 years ago? How can you work as a team to do nothing?

This decision was rash, incredibly naive, and absolutely whimsical. Your arguments sound as though you're trying to convince yourself. If you want to salvage this but still maintain a balance between freedom and diversity (because this kills diversity, kills it, not increases it, if you hadn't thought that far!) I would recommend re-enabling private frequencies and the timed game without !warp functionality. I'd be glad also to modify anything as necessary.

...Christ.

All your work is appreciated. But what is the objective of TW? Is the objective to grow? If so, what is the TW's development road map and how does it fit within SS product road map? What is the plan for the servers as all of this grows?

Spending time on the smaller tactical stuff makes no sense if there is no real direction at the high level.

[MirrorriM]

Mobey, Vyk, and gdug put it perfectly.

[gdugwyler]

Hmm. Having dedicated quite a few hours into what I honestly believe to be a step toward improving pub -- if I may be so bold as to say, far more than you, Moot, despite your committee -- I'm not exactly happy with this result. I have some pride in the continuation of Guano's original bot that began by just limiting levis and private freqs into the development of the timed game, and do consider it to be for the best.

This is interesting as an experiment, but I don't believe the right move. There are two attractions for pub, at least for me: the chaotic spawnfest which focuses on dueling and is quite a good time on occasion, though for a limited time, and the more competetive base-oriented pub where new players learn how to base. Of the two, I don't think I'm the only one that prefers the second most of the time.

Times have changed greatly. Old players are getting bored of pubbing. The veteran basers you speak of that will show people how to base are few and far between. I don't think you're going to see teamwork just springing up from nowhere when most people are interested in just making a kill or two. I'm not sure why, but the flag by itself was just more valuable 5 years ago. These days it's rare that anyone gives a damn about it unless there's some goal to it -- holding for such and such a time adding that value. Yes, we have a bot telling us to do it, but capturing and holding the flag is not its own reward anymore. You say it's not fully explained by zone staff: but is capturing the flag without the bot explained either? The game is naturally absurd.

You say we'll have all types of gameplay across different arenas. Looks like no kind of basing across all arenas to me, as one person pointed out above. Ridiculous.

Encourages teamwork with all ships? I just don't see it. How do you "have plenty of fun working in teams" if there's no real objective -- if people don't value getting the flag today as they did 5 years ago? How can you work as a team to do nothing?

This decision was rash, incredibly naive, and absolutely whimsical. Your arguments sound as though you're trying to convince yourself. If you want to salvage this but still maintain a balance between freedom and diversity (because this kills diversity, kills it, not increases it, if you hadn't thought that far!) I would recommend re-enabling private frequencies and the timed game without !warp functionality. I'd be glad also to modify anything as necessary.

...Christ.

[Vykromond]

I'm a little confused. You said pure pub "killed" non-pure pub. Doesn't that mean it was a better idea? If more people wanted to play pure pub than non-pure pub, why the hell would you kill pure pub? That seems to be the exact reverse of the correct approach: reward and expand upon successful ideas, banish unsuccessful ones to the void.

edit: I also disagree that no one ever knew what to do in pub. That seems a disingenuous claim to me. Killing people and flagging in pub earns you points, and there was a leaderboard posted in the public arena once upon a time of which players and squads earned the most points. Every player entering the game saw that scoreboard.

[Fluffz]

keep the timer
stop tks
chance the weasel

[Kolar]

I think restricting access to private frequencies is a good start. Distention works because it gives people something to work for, some feed back. If we can weave those ideas into publics I think we can go without restrictions but still enhance the game play. The Timer game was bloated and mostly annoying to me, too much green spam. A small tweak to the objectives needs to state that where possible development should focus on a more open model of game play unrestricted and balanced, inclusive not reclusive.

[Zeebu]

whats the harm in keeping one pure pub and make it NOT the pub youre automatically thrown in when logging on?

i liked the basing in pure pub every once and a while. being a ter and dodging the jav bombs on my team was kinda fun

so yeah, just to ask again: whats the harm in keeping 1 pure pub still active? long as its not the default pub when entering?

[Dabram]

Moot, although I agree pubs should include all aspects of TW, dueling and basing (and maybe even being able to collectively hate on leviterrs), I have a few suggestions for the map.

make small entrances for the left and right ears of lower base, have doors for them just like for the side-tubes in lower base. the problem i always had with leviterrs is that, unless they're complete idiots, they're far too difficult to catch, you have to either use a roofterr or you have to warp out of base, and by then they're long gone. a few small entrances will make it possible for the basers to quickly push away the leviterr / surround them and switch back to basing.
also this means there's more ways to enter base of course, but i don't see this as harming, it just means the entire space that the leviterr has around the base will now be used by more players aswell..

i really love the time-games, i'd advise you to bring those back, with a bit of a twist, have a different mvp system: show teamleader (flag-takes) and teamleader (kills or points).

the only reason i rarely play pub is because i find myself always being the only one trying to keep teams balanced, last sunday i played for 2 hours straight, first half hour i was just trying to get a good pub-session going, once both freqs finally were balanced the pub became extremely exciting for about 1.5 hours (then it died again). maybe have a bot that keeps the freq in balance? this shouldn't be too difficult. also i think if 'veterans' play pub they should set a better example by not clutching up together and making the pub very uneven..

also i think pub should include people dueling in spawnzone and around safety zones.. maybe a bot like in ?go javs that shows who is on a killing-spree would be a nice feature, except only for people who get 10+ kills in a row to not flood the arena with meaningless green messages of whoever got 3 kills in a row.. or maybe use a bit of the map for better designed dueling arenas (maybe even move duel-bot to pub?) but not sure if that would work (theres enough room on the map for duel-arenas though).. have to crank up the limit to 40-45 though, 35 is really too low...

i gtg now.

[Mobey]

Before pure pub settings removed...

Pub 0 - Pure public basing
Pub 1 - Whatever people wanted to do

After settings removed...

Pub 0 - Whatever people want to do
Pub 1 - Whatever people want to do


..atleast with the pure pub settings there was to be no private freqs in pub 0.
I wish you all the best in improving public play, Moot.

[Doc Flabby]

I agree with Doc Flabby on this. The ships in #distension are already very balanced. Implementing a system alike that of Distension is a whole other matter. I personally think a system like that requires too much of it's users. If we would implement this, people will leave the publics for sure.

I think you misunderstood my point, I was suggesting that distension can coexist with pub, in a way purepub failed to. pure-pub belonged in its own arena imo. Basically its an automated version of ?go base. Only with free ship selection...

[Star Taxi]

big mess...

I am really a few word guy but now i got to soy something about this...

Thanks for killing baseing in Pubs Moont... never thought I would say this but you messed up big time whit this. If the pure pubs wont go back it will kill the pub baseing and whit that the whole point of trench wars.

We need one pure pub... it doesn't have to be pub 0.
Or TW will lose players I am sure of it.

5 years of TW
7 whit Continuum.
(maybe too much)

-Star Taxi

[hak]

Firstly I would like to say Mootland, you've done a great job so far. Not everything was succesfull, but every success comes with it's errors. You've definetely helped pub become more interesting eversince you started working on them.

Distension = the new pure pub Balanced settings, great basing, No newb tkers. what more could you want.

Someone pointed out to me in pub the other day, its not LTs that kill basings, its private freqs. By making access to these harder and have to be earnt though good play will do alot of good. Prehaps access could take into account your squad's points as well, encoraging pubbing squads. I think moot has made a bold decsion, I hope he sticks to it.

I agree with Doc Flabby on this. The ships in #distension are already very balanced. Implementing a system alike that of Distension is a whole other matter. I personally think a system like that requires too much of it's users. If we would implement this, people will leave the publics for sure.

I do however think you can make use of the ship settings in Distension. One of it's major improvements is the leviathan EMP bomb, rather than exploding bomb. The large proximity remains. I also think it can be useful in a public, to have certain ships 'unlock' at a certain amount of points. For instance, Leviathan can be unlocked at 200.000 points, and Weasel at 300.000. Of course, this would require less resetting of the Trench Wars Publics. (Or, much lower unlock requirements)

Again, I agree with Doc Flabby on the fact that it's not LeviathanTerriers who kill the publics, it's the private frequencies. Frequencies with four or five people in them, are no match for a base full of enemies. They will soon stop trying to get base, and start dueling. Because there's less offensive players at this moment, base will need less people to defend. These can then join a private frequency themselves. It's a vicious circle. A solution to this, would again be setting point requirements as you already mentioned Mootland. Another solution would be setting a maximum amount of private frequences, for instance 5. This allows people to play on their own for a while, but when they quit, another player can take their place.

These are just some thoughts. Comments are very welcome, flaming is not.

Regards,

Hakkinen B)

[Denny Crane]

I've wanted to quit playing anyhow, I was playing too much. Thanks for the motivation.

[MirrorriM]

I agree with alinea. Change the lev, not the entire pub. I dont mind bringing levs back and all that, but I really like the timed game. People can still team together , duel in spawn, be an LT, or whatever. But for the basers a goal would be nice. Anyone can hold a flag--but can they for 3 mins? This also requires teamwork. To be honest I think bringing LT's back to disrupt a team from holding it for 3 mins would make it slightly more exciting and require more strategy.

Only bad part is now we have 2 major tking machines-the javs and now levs.

[Noah]

Good job, Moot, however, I think I'm a part of the group that doesn't like it. I can see how it is a good idea, and I support you.

This change isn't a good one for me, I've always loved pure pubs, and is about the only thing I play. Some careless basing action without any waiting.

I'm sure I can adjust, just takes some time getting used to. I haven't LT'd in AGES either.