++++ Small Weasel Petition ++++

[dads revenge]

Next week: REALLY BIG CLOAKERS

[Andy H.K.]

Dads, please give me your opinion on this?
Small weasel.
Cloak and Stealth, no drain for both activated (slower charge when both are) like usual.
No X-radar, but stick it on sharks. Or levs? Sharks have three repels and they could really screw up a weasel trying to work it's way into a hole before it dies, or keep it out of the base. A visible repel at a home would be an easy "somebody kill this x" signal to the rest of the team as well.
Level two bullets, slow speed like usual?
No clue on what it's flying speed could be.

This would give them back the covert flaghunt aspect, but make them not landmines (meaning camper) or one hit kill ninjas like they have been. They'd be a non-attack ship for the most part, like sharks?

I kind of like these ideas. Anyway I believe the cloaker themselves should have x-radar. Cloaker was the best counter against another cloaker back then years ago. As for shark, I believe it's also beneficial to let them always has x-radar, since you already give jav one. As for level two bullets.... personally I am not going to like it but if it's good for the basing game I'm all for it. We should really test this out.

This weekend event is fun and all (death everywhere like usual!), but I can't help but feel that the weasel being given no charge penalty for it's stealth/cloak/xradar was done... to make it scary. When this weekend event is over people are going to be all "THANK GOD".

This weekend with the small cloakers should be a nice reminder for everyone, they absolutely destroy any form of "basing" that may take place in pure pub.

There was some nice basing going on for about 20 minutes, some good back and forth then, then small weasel douches start up. After you see one five more are sure to follow within a couple of minutes and that's exactly what happened.

Now you've got one freq with a good mix of spids/terrs/sharks/lancs/javs against another freq with over five weasels just slipping in through the cracks. What happens to the well balanced freq? Glad you asked, they all turn javelin to try to kill the cloakers and eventually it turns into a javelin vs. weasel elim/tk fest and any real basers leave.

Pure pub my ass. Thank god this is only for the weekend.

The reason is simple: it got too many stuff.

Yes, this one is truly overpowered. You have my word.

you can go into base so easily, and rocketing Lv3 hit so hard. Even as a terr your only viable option is to portal. infinite stealth+cloak, well, you get the idea.

In this whole thread, when we talk about small weasel, we are not just talking about shrinking its size. What we have been talking about is a very specific ship setting for cloaker:

• 1020 energy
• 1 tile big
• negative recharge with both stealth+cloak on
• Has X radar
• No rockets and repel
• slightly faster bullet speed than the current one

Which is the small "x" we've been seeing for some time, not the chimeric abomination we're seeing in this weakend event.

Some suggestions for further thinking:

1. The "faster bullet" point may need to drop
2. Try out lv 2 bullet

It is a heaven's gift that we have a forum.

[CaptainPoopface]

Yeah, this weekend's weasel was overpowered and had the sucky slow bullets. I agree that it probably reiterated the weasel haters' hatred for weasels, rather than restoring it to a balanced, viable ship choice. But it seems clear that Dads hates the weasel, so maybe we should be grateful that he threw us a bone.

I believe there is a compromise where the weasel can be given characteristics such that it is on an even keel with other ships and not low-down cheap and worthless like it is now. I believe the previous settings (cloak + stealth drains energy; ship fits through holes; no rocket or rep; faster bullets) were fully adequate, but there may be an alternate solution that everyone likes more than the current one, and I'd like to explore that.

Level 2 bullets are a reasonable suggestion, provided their energy drain is also adjusted. I think higher ship speed and bullet speed are necessary. The sneaking through holes seems to be a big objection among weasel haters. I'd concede that if weasel spawns with a portal. So you can't sneak into base, but if you're chased, you can at least port away, or attack your attacker in the ass. Weasel is still sneaky and devious, and there is still only one flag entrance to guard.

May the discussion continue.

[JD MoFo]

But it seems clear that Dads hates the weasel, so maybe we should be grateful that he threw us a bone.

We shouldn't be thankful for bones, we should expect a fair decision.
Not a decision from someone who is biased to begin with.

[Andy H.K.]

We shouldn't be thankful for bones, we should expect a fair decision.
Not a decision from someone who is biased to begin with.

Since he's the one with the final say we may as well just watch how things go. Making suggestions is the only thing we can do and negotiation is the only thing we should rely on.

Even the lowly weasel would have its time.

Weasel War Dance!

[DankNuggets]

Really well done, just like a McCain attack add.

Go ahead and "throw us a bone" by NOT giving us the ship settings we asked for.

It also helps when (just like with the nightwasp) you make the ship so overpowered that it becomes something that neither party agrees to. Clever, really. Get people who were on the fence to come to the other side by exaggerating the "ills" of your opponent. Classic.

Not to mention that this is all being done in the exact way it should be: with current players posting their opinions in the SSCU Trench Wars Forum. Really classy with the "whine" post -- i guess you see the only form of creative advice regarding the pubs as "whining". Good to know that public development views the opinions of those its supposed to serve as "whining"/

Also kudos to not putting up a poll, since it would backfire on you if a majority of people DID want it back, given all your "weasels destroy basing" talk. I'll concede that polls aren't the best way to decide NEW pub dev ideas since they force people to pick between things they're not accustomed to. However, these two settings have been used extensively, and everyone who would vote in the poll would have a good bit of knowledge regarding both options.

You've done a lot of good for sparking interest in the pubs, but your stone-faced approach to ignoring the few relevant threads regarding public development is depressing. I even liked the new map you made, too bad that whole line of thought seems to have died out as well.


EDIT: well if dad's isn't in charge, then i'm sorry for getting pissed at you directly, please transfer my aggession to whoever's supposed to be responsible ... TUO?

[dee]

When I logged in on Friday and read the .txt file saying we will have small weasels as the weekend event, I thought "Wow awesome, this should be fun". I got into the ship and to my disappointment, it wasn't at all the small x. To start, the graphics weren't even changed? I mean yes the actual weasel was shrunk down but not the graphic (seemed like you were mocking us). The energy was upped i think to 1400 (or 1300?). Still a rep, still a rocket, can cloak infinity AND recharge really fast with both on. The bullets were still slow. I don't think any real changes were made apart from making it even STRONGER and LAMER because you could actually rush with this X while cloaked (I tried it and chased a wb across the map and killing him while cloaked the whole time). It was insulting, even after all this arguing to see that all the changes to the x were actually opposite to what the small x is supposed to resemble in settings.
Now I don't know if it's just a misunderstanding as to what small weasel we imply but Andy has it perfectly:

In this whole thread, when we talk about small weasel, we are not just talking about shrinking its size. What we have been talking about is a very specific ship setting for cloaker:

• 1020 energy
• 1 tile big
• negative recharge with both stealth+cloak on
• Has X radar
• No rockets and repel
• slightly faster bullet speed than the current one

Those settings are what I had in mind when i logged on in the weekend. Dads, I don't know what your problem is with the small x and you haven't really showed any arguments as to why we should not have small X. (I'm not just attacking you but your the only staff on here posting)

The big X we have now actually encourages being lame because of its infinite cloaking ability. I could continue on about how terrible the big X is but Andy, JD and others have already done a great job pointing out defaults.
I'm going to finish up here, I vote for small weasels and hope whoever is in charge of the pubs to come forth to at least give us some reasons to deny our petition. (Apparently it's not dads since dads told me he is not in charge of these kinds of things when I asked him in game).

d=

[The Rydian]

The sneaking through holes seems to be a big objection among weasel haters. I'd concede that if weasel spawns with a portal. So you can't sneak into base, but if you're chased, you can at least port away, or attack your attacker in the ass. Weasel is still sneaky and devious, and there is still only one flag entrance to guard.

Awwr. D: But I love infinite stealth+cloak and hole sneaking. Which is why I'm suggesting level two bullets and such as something to give up to get it. ^^;

Not like anybody (besides batman) dogfights in a weasel.

I kind of like these ideas.

Yay!

Anyway I believe the cloaker themselves should have x-radar. Cloaker was the best counter against another cloaker back then years ago.

Meh. I'd rather see sharks get X-radar.

As for shark, I believe it's also beneficial to let them always has x-radar, since you already give jav one.

Then you might see one outside of base. Maybe even more than two at once! XD Slow life drain for sharks with x-radar, though? Not startinmg with it would be too much of a disadvantage.

As for level two bullets.... personally I am not going to like it but if it's good for the basing game I'm all for it. We should really test this out.

Either level 2 bullets with faster ship speed (to catch people that just shot while having avoided their shots) or two semi-fast shots of level 2 like lancaster (when multi'd, not the faster succession when it's not)? No clue which would be more fair.

In this whole thread, when we talk about small weasel, we are not just talking about shrinking its size. What we have been talking about is a very specific ship setting for cloaker:

Heh, I've been sort of trying a compromise. ^^;

[JD MoFo]

I think their 1 hit kill bullets fit the weasel perfectly

[Viruk]

A small weasel gets my vote.

I miss the satisfaction of a well aimed shot hitting and destroying a 1 tile ship.

I hate there being another ship with repels in the game: being bounced about the base a lot negates the skills of flying and aiming and causes more random deaths.

I agree with Andy H.K. about the small weasel having more of a role in basing than the current version.

If the 'original' (settings as posted by Andy H.K.) small weasel is considered overpowered (and it probably was) then tweak it down some other way.

As long as a ship has a useful role I don't see why it should be able to hold its own in all circumstances. Ensuring the weasel is sufficiently underpowered vs most other ships (providing they are aware of it) ought to keep it from wrecking a basing game.

I would suggest allowing them no multifire. Force the little sneaks to aim!

I would rather they be assassins rather than vulchers so leave them the firepower to kill a fully charged ship if they can get fairly close undamaged before their cloaking drains too much energy.

Any ship with 1-hit killing capability that can bypass the main flag room defences, is hard to hit and can use the smallest walls and niches to shield themselves from bullets will remain powerful even when visible. Make them very slow to recharge even with no drain. With a lower rate of fire and made more vulnerable to repeated L3 bullets as well as bombs, weasels will be slaughtered or driven off by most competent defenders without needing everyone to switch ships or risk teamkilling bombs even if they swarm in through holes.

[crazi]

I vote for small weasel and also unlimited afterburner so I can start destroying base with my cults of small weasel. Levi's would be shitting in their pants after my weasel gang rapes and kills their family in a desperate attempt to take over the block.

[DankNuggets]

purepub > tw ?

i think an issue here is promoting purepub over trenchwars in general.

small weasel settings seemed to be OK in the minds of the large weasel proponents as long as they weren't mucking with base and going through the holes. Well, that's only really a problem in purepub. Basically you're sacrificing the entire public system for the purepubs.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you can't make one ship setting for normal pubs and another for purepubs. On that same limb, i'm guessing that for some reason, you don't think the addition of another ship with repels disrupts the idea of purepub either... or the 'necessity' of sharks with regards to the bot calculations of !team !ship...

IMO, as a compromise, you should have just restricted weasels from purepub, and left them alone for the rest of the pubs. I don't like levi restrictions, was vehemently against the jav restrictions, but I think I could live with a compromise that restricted weasels from purepub if they are reverted back to the small size, faster firing rate, and finite stealth+cloaking.

i'm grabbing at straws trying to work something out, please work with us.

[CaptainPoopface]

But the weasel's impact on basing was a significant part of its appeal to me, and I don't think many people would use the weasel at all if it were only in the non-basing impure pub. The lev was restricted from purepub, I presume, because it made people sad in their pants for the entire FR to be obliterated by one LT from outside. It was to improve the basing game, which it certainly did. Although it is often contested, I think allowing the old weasel in purepub would also improve basing. Purepub collapses and dies when one team is getting smoked. The old weasel was an equalizer that made it much harder for one team to utterly dominate the other, thereby keeping the game lively.

I'm all for considering new things, and finding (or at least trying!) something other than the current sucky weasel configuration. However, shark, lanc, jav, terr, and (formerly) weasel have x-radar. Really, it is not hard to defend the holes against weasels. The terrier x-radar costs minimal energy. Etc. This argument has been made already so I won't belabor it here.

The point is, I don't agree with Dank on this particular suggestion, but I do agree that something else should be tried.

I'd be willing to give up the thrust firing, or the triple shot, but not both.
I'd consider L2 bullets, like the lanc or spider single fire.
I think sneaking through cracks is important, as well as finite cloak + stealth.

If we clearly understand what the weasel haters hate and what the weasel lovers love, we could find a compromise. If every ship could green or buy x-radar, for example, then the cloaking advantage would be almost eliminated, and then it would just be a matter of setting the x-radar price and the energy cost to have it on. I think that's an extreme example and not the right idea, but you see my point? There's a continuum here. How about if the ships that can't have x-radar can buy a very small (1-tile) brick to patch holes with? Or a Thor's Hammer that has zero velocity, so those ships effectively could mine the holes.

There are many knobs we could twiddle to find something better for everyone.

[DankNuggets]

But the weasel's impact on basing was a significant part of its appeal to me, and I don't think many people would use the weasel at all if it were only in the non-basing impure pub. The lev was restricted from purepub, I presume, because it made people sad in their pants for the entire FR to be obliterated by one LT from outside. It was to improve the basing game, which it certainly did. Although it is often contested, I think allowing the old weasel in purepub would also improve basing. Purepub collapses and dies when one team is getting smoked. The old weasel was an equalizer that made it much harder for one team to utterly dominate the other, thereby keeping the game lively.

I'm all for considering new things, and finding (or at least trying!) something other than the current sucky weasel configuration. However, shark, lanc, jav, terr, and (formerly) weasel have x-radar. Really, it is not hard to defend the holes against weasels. The terrier x-radar costs minimal energy. Etc. This argument has been made already so I won't belabor it here.

The point is, I don't agree with Dank on this particular suggestion, but I do agree that something else should be tried.

I'd be willing to give up the thrust firing, or the triple shot, but not both.
I'd consider L2 bullets, like the lanc or spider single fire.
I think sneaking through cracks is important, as well as finite cloak + stealth.

If we clearly understand what the weasel haters hate and what the weasel lovers love, we could find a compromise. If every ship could green or buy x-radar, for example, then the cloaking advantage would be almost eliminated, and then it would just be a matter of setting the x-radar price and the energy cost to have it on. I think that's an extreme example and not the right idea, but you see my point? There's a continuum here. How about if the ships that can't have x-radar can buy a very small (1-tile) brick to patch holes with? Or a Thor's Hammer that has zero velocity, so those ships effectively could mine the holes.

There are many knobs we could twiddle to find something better for everyone.

FTR, i completely agree with you. I'm trying to form a compromise between the people who think it destroys basing and those that think it helps it.

[CaptainPoopface]

NO beacuase this is not what pub should look like.

bad enough they even did that with decoys as well

With qan's voting system in place, if this happens, the pub can now vote to restrict the number of weasels. So that objection to the weasel disappears.

So.... Can we try putting the previous weasel back now please?



^^ And I agree with Raver420 about this