++++ Small Weasel Petition ++++

[CaptainPoopface]

I'd also like to add that a duel between skilled small weasels had an elegance to it. Now there is no dueling, because you cannot fire a shot that another weasel can't dodge, unless you use your one and only rocket. Just another part of the game that got neutered in the change to big X.

After reading the posts in favour and against the small weasel, I'm yet to see any actions what-so-ever towards a poll or any type of decision.

so WHY isn't anything happening?

Probably because it would take work, and the few people capable of doing it don't want to do extra work, especially when they also personally don't want to attain the goal that the work would accomplish.

I think we are pissing in the wind here.

How much trouble was it to set up an arena for milosh's recent post where people could PM the bot with their vote? That seems much more effective than voting directly on the forums.

[JD MoFo]

After reading the posts in favour and against the small weasel, I'm yet to see any actions what-so-ever towards a poll or any type of decision.

so WHY isn't anything happening?

[The Rydian]

EDIT: Woah, double-post, sorry.

[The Rydian]

Been keeping tabs on this for a while, finally decided to join up and post. Been playing on and off for years. Only in pub and maybe once in a while a hosted fun game or two. Love freezetag.

The small weasel was so unique and skillful in the right hands, the fat ship has no chance against a lanc or a terr, at least in the small weasel you could try sometimes with good results.

Tell me about it. Right now if I'm weasel and I see a terr coming for me, I...
1 - Warp.
2 - Uncloak/unstealth and face the other way, waiting for my slow demise at the hands of level one bullets slowly making their way into my ship's anus.

Large weasel is too slow and it's bullets go way too slow to defend itself AT ALL against it's predators. All the other ships have some defense against their predators. Weasels have NONE that I have ever found. If one comes after you, you're dead. Even if they jsut joined yesterday and learned the controls, you're DEAD, period.

Big X is made to be a camper. Who likes campers?

Small weasel could at least 50% of the time manage to work itself through a one-square hole and get behind the wall. Not easy or always an option, but it was at least a form of defense...

[...]The small x was indeed helpful to the team.[...]
[...]I sneaked in and out[...]
[...]interfered enemy actions and consolidated our hold.[...]
[...]With the small x, I was able to go beyone killing, and touch the deeper aspect - psychological warfare.[...]

[...]As I annoyed my opponent more, joy filled my heart - for I know this only help my team more.[...]
[...]they got distracted more from other important objectives,[...]

This I want to point out specifically.
In small weasel, that was great. Fly by a fight uncloaked, watch three enemies break off and chase you out of hate for small weasel. Let them chase you to the edge of the map, die. You're at spawn, they're at the edge of the map.

[...]I found a niche for the weasel, a unique role which no other ships can perform as good.[...]
[...]it was a spy behind enemy lines, wrecking havoc in covert, creating confusion and promoting disorder.[...]

• Fill a unique niche of covert operation, providing variation to personal gameplay options.
• Add extra possibilities (eg. sneaking flag) to the game in general, creating an element of surprise.
• Make the game more engaging by keeping the winning team on its toe, as they would know their opponent may use dire tactic - One shall remain vigilant even when you control majority of indoor area.
• Deepen the mindgame aspect of Trench Wars experience.

The thing is, yes getting into flag room is trivial for small weasel. But, to them, what's important is what they could achieve AFTER getting in.

Remember that the odds is against the small weasel because of its limited attack range, a cloaking time limit and being heavily overnumber in an enemy-controlled flag room. I wish you had at least attempted to play around with the ship back then. It was a challenge and very satisfying when you succeed.

I loved sneaking in a hole, hitting the flag, and seeing if I lived to sneak out. Watching them all freak out suddenly was awesome.

But yes. If small weasel sneaks into base and kills you and gets flag... it's going to die at the hands of your teammates. Very fast. Do people not look at the screen to keep watching after they die?

Bring back the small x. The settings for the large X make it only suited for ridiculously cheap tactics.

To the specifics, though, I don't think simply making the weasel small again is the answer. If any change is to be made I'd prefer a reversion to the small weasel of a couple years back. That is:

- Slightly higher speed
- Better thrust (for those ridiculous two-screens-away thrustsnipes)
- Infinite cloak/stealth (but no recharge while both are on)
- No rep
- No rocket (but purchasable)
- Can't remember if it had radar, but it's not necessary

I don't think that's overpowered. Especially since energy is frozen while cloaked/stealthed, since a single shot from a spider's enough to take it down, and spiders and such can just spray in your general direction.

I saw it a lot during the recent nightwasp weekend. After a small bit people realized the nightwasp was killed by a single spider shot. Spiders spray, 5 nightwasps in that general direction die.

Adaptation..



Since people seem to fear small x, why not give it level 2 bullets like the levi has now?

[E sharp]

I didn't read the rest of the thread, but at least to the title I say: fucking signed.

To the specifics, though, I don't think simply making the weasel small again is the answer. If any change is to be made I'd prefer a reversion to the small weasel of a couple years back. That is:

- Slightly higher speed
- Better thrust (for those ridiculous two-screens-away thrustsnipes)
- Infinite cloak/stealth (but no recharge while both are on)
- No rep
- No rocket (but purchasable)
- Can't remember if it had radar, but it's not necessary

I'm sure people will whine and say that it's too overpowered. Which it is—but only in relation to the currently underpowered weasel. As it is the ship is mostly a novelty. In lev pubs it's pretty much limited to cloaking levs and campers and maybe the occasional just-spawned warbird if you're a huge asshole—and in pure pubs it serves even less purpose. So I say, make it a real ship again. Let people play it as the weasel, not as the cloaker.

The only concern would be its potential to unbalance flag time games what with sneaking through the little holes in the roof and whatnot. To set the balance aright on that one I'd recommend giving the lanc x-radar all of the time. You might even make it so that the energy drain is equal to the lanc's recharge rate, like the weasel and its cloakstealth... so that if radar is on, and you take a shot, then your energy is frozen at almost empty and you have to turn it off in order to recharge. Or if you want to be really sadistic you can even let spiders green radar some of the time. And so on.

But if you scrap the cloaker and give us back the weasel, there'll hardly be any need for sneaking around invisible. Cloak will be a tool, not the tool. And that's how it Ought To Be.

[CaptainPoopface]

Bring back the small x. The settings for the large X make it only suited for ridiculously cheap tactics. On the rare occasions I play weasel, all I do is spawnkill levs and obnoxious wb spawnkillers, as punishment for cheapness on their part. There's essentially nothing they can do to defend themselves other than switch ships, and I'll be the first to say it's lame. The game is now less fun for everyone, including those who play weasel.

I loved the x. It added a lot to the gameplay to have those alternate entrances into the flag room. A single player on the opposing team with X radar can police the holes by alerting teammates, and it takes some time for the x to squeeze in there. After a player tries it once, the opposing team is alert from then on. It's easy to defend against.

The small x was balanced. You could cloak only for a brief time, and everyone hates the weasel, so you had to maneuver like hell when your cloak ran out. But it had the thrust and bullet speed to at least be able to hold its own in the hands of a skilled player. Now it has neither. If your shot misses and the enemy has X radar, you're toast. That means there is no dogfighting with it. You must either hide and assassinate cheaply, or be killed with ease.

That sucks for everyone - the people who like the weasel and the people who hate the weasel.

Switching from the x to the X was a distinct step backward for the game in terms of fun, strategy and balance.

[dads revenge]

AHH look they are small

[Andy H.K.]

Don't say good old days of small weasel they weren't small in the "good old days" that came about later, yes there are guides for dueling, Basing isn't chess but it is strategy, yes in most cases small weasel sneaking in the flagroom takes no skill (but thank god for all those other ships that have x-radar). Bah well doesn't matter I will give you the small weasel this weekend as a reward for spending soo much time creating those crazy ideas about it.

The oldest weasel was a big cloaker without rocket and repel, back when TW first began. I believe its bullet speed was even slower than the current setting. Weasel users were unheard of back then, no one actually gave it considerations. It also happened to be the last ship I'm in when I "retired" years ago.

No one used the big one not because it is weak, for being invisible is indeed powerful (yet easily defeatable). The big weasel suffer from a lack of purpose. There were hardly any situation where people would find hopping into a weasel helps, especially during basing. I don't know how things went after it got rocket and repel, but seeing what's happening today... Well, it's good for backstabbing people, but that's not good enough to be a defining character when you have basing in mind.

I believe the weasel being small was worth all the sucky setting it received. It was pure. The removal of items make it harder to score kills, but it could sneak through holes. The combination of stealth, cloak and ability to squeeze through holes make it THE ship for covert operations. Its purpose was, for once, clear and pure. That's why people would actually use it and help their teams, because it was actually helpful to be in one.

It seems to me that TW cummunity has a consensus of "there shouldn't be a lot of weasels in a game", and people think they could/should use ship settings itself to control their number. People would argue so far against small weasel to say "being unique doesn't make u useful". Well, it has been shown that it was useful, and so more people would play it. That apparently annoyed some people, or rather, most people. They'd rather have a ship that doesn't have a purity of purpose, so that no one would play it as it doesn't help. However, by leaving out this small part of the game, the whole gaming experience dimished. The game was made "incomplete".

I believe developers should at least give it a try once more, not just for a few days as a present for some "crazy ranting". I also recommend the people who decide the setting to play in it. As I said before, the "sneaking in part" is trivial, it's "what you can do once inside" that counts, and what's hard. Not trying to be boastful, but I believe I weaseled more than anybody else here, at least in the forum. You may found that afterall, developers don't understand the small weasel that much. Really, try it. It will be a worthy experiment.

how about big weasles that can fit through small holes.

We had that. The "big weasel" in St. Patricks day could squeeze through holes.

or small weasels that are like 1 pixel too big for the holes

or small weasels that are like 1 pixel big O_o

now that would be hard to manuver....

[DankNuggets]

or small weasels that are like 1 pixel too big for the holes

[project dragon]

how about big weasles that can fit through small holes.

[dads revenge]

Don't say good old days of small weasel they weren't small in the "good old days" that came about later, yes there are guides for dueling, Basing isn't chess but it is strategy, yes in most cases small weasel sneaking in the flagroom takes no skill (but thank god for all those other ships that have x-radar). Bah well doesn't matter I will give you the small weasel this weekend as a reward for spending soo much time creating those crazy ideas about it.

[Andy H.K.]

Little weasels negate the fact that base only has one entrance. It offers 10 entrances to the flag room, alone. It kills the basic base experience, in both pure pubs and non-pure pubs. If you're new and trying to get good with a spider or something, it's gonna piss you off when you keep getting killed by someone you can't even see. They might, then, change ships, or stop playing out of frustration leading to them quitting the game. Eventually, there would be nothing left but cloakers in pubs, all invisible to each other like a giant game of ?go cloaks, but without any spec tasks or objectives. No one will uncloak and it slowly diminish to just a few cloakers flying around invisible and not shooting, until there are only bots left. That is when Priit realises this game is finally dead and stops paying for the server. Small weasles are the downfall of this game.

Not really, but in my opinion, the first part of that was true. I miss the days when there wasn't even the ability to change ship prox.

Nothing kill basing more than leviathan - that's the consensus. The banning of it in pure pub would suggest game developers think so, too. When I returned and play in pure pub for the first time, I liked it too. There's no longer any annoying big blast! But now, my opinion has changed. I found the lack of levi took away a part of the basing experience. But I'd like to stay on topic and talk about levi in another post.

You talked about the use of multiple entrance by small weasel. I see you meant the holes on the wall of flag room. The same holes are being used by javs or wbs to shoot inside from roof. If you allow people to shoot into the base like that I see no points in not letting ships to get through the holes since that makes no difference.

But there IS indeed a difference! It takes javs and wbs skills to successfully shoot through the holes! Small weasels can just pop on cloak, squeeze all hola! It takes zero skills isn't it?

The thing is, yes getting into flag room is trivial for small weasel. But, to them, what's important is what they could achieve AFTER getting in.

Remember that the odds is against the small weasel because of its limited attack range, a cloaking time limit and being heavily overnumber in an enemy-controlled flag room. I wish you had at least attempted to play around with the ship back then. It was a challenge and very satisfying when you succeed.

It was also challenging for the defending team to stop small weasels. Apart from terr, all other ships' x-radar drain energy. You need to manage your energy well to keep track of cloakers, just as the cloakers need it to make good use of the finite cloak. If you could manage energy better in spider, you will learn to conserve energy, pick your shots and prioritize your targets. That's only part of what playing in and against small weasels can teach you.

In basing, if someone get killed by cloaker without prior alert it would suggest the defender lacks cloaker detection. Such "defence" is incomplete and such team deserve to be crushed.

There is a big part of gameplay of TW which was left out, abandoned and should be brought back.

Some response to your minor points:

1. In general, if you're new and trying to get good with anything, it's gonna piss you off when you keep getting killed ... by anyone else.
2. Unlike ?go base, you can change ship freely in pub. The bot in pure pub would even suggest you to change ship (by showing lacking/excess of ship type in !team). Since ship types of TW works on a class-based system, you can work out counter matchups easily. The game gets easier once you learn to be more flexible.
3. The "first part" of your post I have discussed. I think your "second part" is not talking about the small weasel, but weasel itself, be it small or big. Skip the adjective.

People are getting so misty-eyed over the Weasel's good ol days. Well, I say scrap ship 6 and put in a Time Travel Cruiser so you can warp back in time and play your ship.

And that guy (Andy something?) that ranted on Weasel tactics as if this were actually a war, uhh... shoot ships and they die. Get shot; you die.

GG.

Let's talk about dueling in TW. It is the simpliest form of game, truly "shoot ships and they die. Get shot; you die" style. But if there is a guide for such simple game then I find it valid to have a random player such as the Andy something you mentions trying to dissect TW basing for his own and TW's sake. The objective of Chess is to "grab your opponent's king", simple as that, but to achieve that is not that easy. My point is, if you actually try to leave the surface and dive deeper into various aspect of TW gameplay, you CAN go much deeper than you think.

Ship 6 just happen to be "my ship". I do get misty-eyed over the weasel's good ol days. What's more is that I get misty-eyed even more over TW's good ol days when we had a elegant and delicate toy to play with.

I stand firm that the small weasel is more beneficial to the basing gameplay experience than the current setting.

[dads revenge]

yes. i agree. small nightwasp.

OOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Nice thought but I think that weekend would piss off everyone. I have a plan for something this weekend already (no I won't tell) and maybe I will set the cloaks small for it as well. but I will balance the ships accordingly.

MUWAAHAAH I just got an evil idea soo glad I read this thread tonight.

[Dr. Snyder]

Small X's were all in all more fun for more players. Big X is a specialist that only can camp or x levis in spawn. The small hole thing is annoying I'll admit but I think something could be done if it is really that bad, perhaps banning them for pure pub or something considering that pub already blows for anything but TKing. But hey at least pub limit is 40 again and levi pub is on top so I can't complain even if I get X'd in levi constantly

[King Baba]

People are getting so misty-eyed over the Weasel's good ol days. Well, I say scrap ship 6 and put in a Time Travel Cruiser so you can warp back in time and play your ship.

And that guy (Andy something?) that ranted on Weasel tactics as if this were actually a war, uhh... shoot ships and they die. Get shot; you die.

GG.