Trenchwars- Loyalty

[Reaver]

You guys are retarded. I think lag killer says it best. This is a game, not a way of life. Yea it's fun to compete and have a good challenge. But when people start to take this game waaay to seriously, it becomes stale and not fun at all. You guys should just get past this.

Lag killer's main point was that in terms of everything else that we're trying to fix, this ranks low on that scale. It would probably be futile to try and reward this, agreed. But I won't agree that this is insignificant or even low on the scale of importance. Nobody is acting like this game is a way of life, but the point is, if you log in to play for a couple hours of week, then the game entertains you for a couple hours a week. You could go do something else but you don't, you log on and play. So how about we try to keep the game worth logging onto for a couple hours a week? It would be a safe bet to say that the majority of people that log on to play TWD or elim or anything else competitive, is because they want to play something competitive. If you log on to play pub, sure, this is probably insignificant to you.


People that squadhop...where to begin. If a good player hops from squad to squad, whatever squad they hop to, they help them win more games and increase their rating. True, point taken. But, let's think about all the downsides compared to that one upside. Players might not have joined a squad because that player was there, but some might (and indeed many have) left when a good player has left. It makes it much harder on squad captains to run squads when you have a domino effect and many people leave. Squads would be around longer if people didn't squad hop as much, even losing squads would be around longer.

Also, as I've mentioned before, squads don't really have identities like they did in the past. The best matches in all of TW have always been between rival squads. Rival squads had rivalries because those squads were well defined and something triggered them to dislike each other. Squads today are, for the most part, not well defined. Also, squads today don't last quite as long because of the domino effect I mentioned earlier. Because the members within squads change so often, people coming and going all the time, squads don't have defined identities as they have in the past. So fewer squad rivalries, so fewer interesting matches to watch or participate in. This is probably more significant than the other problems, and I'm not attributing it all to squad disloyalty.

As I was saying before, I think squad hopping will always be around, but I don't think it should be (or has to be) as bad as it is today. Maybe people that currently squad hop so much would realize the negative effects they're having on the competition.

[HateTheFake]

reaver hit the nail on the head....again

Offer some sort of reward for being in a squad alot time, 1 year 2 years ect

maybe wbduel powers, maybe giving the squad an extra assist spot.

[kthx]

I get what you are saying Reaver, and I do understand the domino effect, however any good squad with a loyal core of players can recover from the effect of a good player leaving and others leaving with him. I think that any negative effects caused by this can be fixed easily by having captains who can play as well if not better than the said player. I know im not that great as a warbird anymore, Izor is and Racka is though, therefore even if lets say Vys does leave quicksand, the squad won't automatically be destroyed by the domino effect. This is partially due to the fact that idiot captains let good players join and take the other five people who are known to follow that player around with them. When Quicksand goes inactive and I join a squad, I always let the other captain know that I will be going back to Quicksand eventually, and not to recruit all of my squadmates because they will also. However skill in the minds of some weak squad captains outweighs the fact that their squad will turn into a weak shell of players who never got any playtime during the season because the "better" players were played to win twdd points.

Mantra, that idea is awful, I understand the concept.. If you stay with an older squad that has proven itself to stay alive over the course of many years than you will have an easier time making it to TWL. The problem with this is.. if you are a good enough player to be on one of these main squads, you can just join a new squad and get into TWL just as easy as you could with that. All this does is makes it harder for the up and coming players of TW to get into TWL. With.. lets say 8 slots open for TWLD, and lets say 5 of the best squads in the zone automatically taking 5 of those slots, this leaves 3 slots available for the middle class of trenchwars, if your idea was implemented then squads with more up and coming talent might lose out to a squad with inactive players just because they have been around longer, and not because they were the better players. This would kill the competition of TWLD even further.

Back to you Reaver, I also agree that squad rivalries are gone, but this is partially to blame with poor TWL coordinators making bad decisions. Even the smallest stupid things such as the hilarious Quicksand vs United Force forum battle a couple of years ago.. mods tried to close it down, banned people for "spamming" before a twl match, banning people for trying to get the last word, etc etc etc. TWL Coordinators need to understand that shit talking is THE best way to produce rivalries that make TWL more fun for the players who play it, more fun for the onlookers, and make people want to eventually make their way into the league.

[pascone]

if spamming is the only way you can talk shit, then it's probably better for everyone so they don't have to witness such poor shit talking in the first place

[kthx]

I didn't say I was spamming, im just saying people do, besides, last word is a classic quicksand twd tradition.

[bicycle]

Before you write off what Reaver said, we should hear him out. I for one would like to see something like he said implemented. Reaver, what are some of the ideas that you have?

lol get off his nuts

[LaG KiLLeR]

Lag killer's main point was that in terms of everything else that we're trying to fix, this ranks low on that scale. It would probably be futile to try and reward this, agreed. But I won't agree that this is insignificant or even low on the scale of importance. Nobody is acting like this game is a way of life, but the point is, if you log in to play for a couple hours of week, then the game entertains you for a couple hours a week. You could go do something else but you don't, you log on and play. So how about we try to keep the game worth logging onto for a couple hours a week? It would be a safe bet to say that the majority of people that log on to play TWD or elim or anything else competitive, is because they want to play something competitive. If you log on to play pub, sure, this is probably insignificant to you.


People that squadhop...where to begin. If a good player hops from squad to squad, whatever squad they hop to, they help them win more games and increase their rating. True, point taken. But, let's think about all the downsides compared to that one upside. Players might not have joined a squad because that player was there, but some might (and indeed many have) left when a good player has left. It makes it much harder on squad captains to run squads when you have a domino effect and many people leave. Squads would be around longer if people didn't squad hop as much, even losing squads would be around longer.

Also, as I've mentioned before, squads don't really have identities like they did in the past. The best matches in all of TW have always been between rival squads. Rival squads had rivalries because those squads were well defined and something triggered them to dislike each other. Squads today are, for the most part, not well defined. Also, squads today don't last quite as long because of the domino effect I mentioned earlier. Because the members within squads change so often, people coming and going all the time, squads don't have defined identities as they have in the past. So fewer squad rivalries, so fewer interesting matches to watch or participate in. This is probably more significant than the other problems, and I'm not attributing it all to squad disloyalty.

As I was saying before, I think squad hopping will always be around, but I don't think it should be (or has to be) as bad as it is today. Maybe people that currently squad hop so much would realize the negative effects they're having on the competition.

First off, I apologize but I did not read all of this, I'm in a rush...

Anyway, Reaver, that is not my main point. Although I did state that in terms of all the presentable "issues" or "problems" in SS, it would rank as one of the lowest (in terms of what you consider to be issues/problems)...

But my main point is that it is unnecessary to develop a reward system. People play the game to have fun and enjoy, if people are seeking rewards and benefits from a free two-dimensional internet game, they should go to the bank and withdraw some money from their savings account, and invest it in a game that DOES offer it....I think it's ridiculous to create a reward system because although the idea may SOUND great to some, people are failing to understand the amount of time it would require to fully plan out a REAL system based on acceptable operational definitions, etc....

Knowing all of you guys, once a system is implemented, more and more issues and complaints will arise, and this would only distract staff and steer the game in the wrong direction....how would the game benefit from pasting 100-200 names (in order based on the definition of "loyalty") on a separate website....are you guys going to screenshot it and put it in your facebook or myspace profile, are you going to sit in awe at your computer desk for five hours and wait every second for your name to jump up to a higher rank?

As I stated before, people are not loyal because of the luxuries they would obtain (although there are none present...and it should remain that way) for being loyal, people are loyal because they enjoy being on a squad....they are truly having fun.

I think good squads with "LOYAL" members are already being rewarded indirectly, they have these "LOYAL" members in their squad....and I think that's all squads would want to ask, and should ask for...nothing more needs to be done. If you're upset about the squadhopping movement, don't recruit them to your squad and tell your fellow friends not to recruit them to their squads....but that's all that needs to be done. You'll never stop squadhoppers from squadhopping, and even if squadhoppers ceased to exist, the whole zone of TW would begin to decline because part of the success of this zone and this game (as well as other games), are the changing rosters...in that sense, it's less of a DULL game than it could be.

[Reaver]

First off, I apologize but I did not read all of this, I'm in a rush...

Anyway, Reaver, that is not my main point. Although I did state that in terms of all the presentable "issues" or "problems" in SS, it would rank as one of the lowest (in terms of what you consider to be issues/problems)...

But my main point is that it is unnecessary to develop a reward system. People play the game to have fun and enjoy, if people are seeking rewards and benefits from a free two-dimensional internet game, they should go to the bank and withdraw some money from their savings account, and invest it in a game that DOES offer it....I think it's ridiculous to create a reward system because although the idea may SOUND great to some, people are failing to understand the amount of time it would require to fully plan out a REAL system based on acceptable operational definitions, etc....

Knowing all of you guys, once a system is implemented, more and more issues and complaints will arise, and this would only distract staff and steer the game in the wrong direction....how would the game benefit from pasting 100-200 names (in order based on the definition of "loyalty") on a separate website....are you guys going to screenshot it and put it in your facebook or myspace profile, are you going to sit in awe at your computer desk for five hours and wait every second for your name to jump up to a higher rank?

As I stated before, people are not loyal because of the luxuries they would obtain (although there are none present...and it should remain that way) for being loyal, people are loyal because they enjoy being on a squad....they are truly having fun.

I think good squads with "LOYAL" members are already being rewarded indirectly, they have these "LOYAL" members in their squad....and I think that's all squads would want to ask, and should ask for...nothing more needs to be done. If you're upset about the squadhopping movement, don't recruit them to your squad and tell your fellow friends not to recruit them to their squads....but that's all that needs to be done. You'll never stop squadhoppers from squadhopping, and even if squadhoppers ceased to exist, the whole zone of TW would begin to decline because part of the success of this zone and this game (as well as other games), are the changing rosters...in that sense, it's less of a DULL game than it could be.

You're beating the strawman, I've been saying all along that a reward system would be nice but that it's pretty much not going to work (there might be something that would work but it would probably take too much time/effort to implement). My entire posts have been centered around the fact that it wouldn't work but rather than do nothing or say nothing, I'd at least point out the effects it's taking on the zone. If you want to argue whether or not the effects of squad hopping are very negative on competition, then by all means, but if you want to argue that creating some system of rewards is a bad idea, I don't think there's anyone here willing to argue with you...because we agree. You should really read the posts before you reply, otherwise you're arguing against something that the person wasn't even arguing for.

[LaG KiLLeR]

You're beating the strawman, I've been saying all along that a reward system would be nice but that it's pretty much not going to work (there might be something that would work but it would probably take too much time/effort to implement). My entire posts have been centered around the fact that it wouldn't work but rather than do nothing or say nothing, I'd at least point out the effects it's taking on the zone. If you want to argue whether or not the effects of squad hopping are very negative on competition, then by all means, but if you want to argue that creating some system of rewards is a bad idea, I don't think there's anyone here willing to argue with you...because we agree. You should really read the posts before you reply, otherwise you're arguing against something that the person wasn't even arguing for.

I don't have the patience to go through and read all the posts/replies, mainly due to the fact that nothing important or new will be stated in them. That may sound arrogant, but most of these TW/SS-related threads are a waste of time containing little-to-no substance. It's comforting to know that you agree, shows me that you do have some common sense.

In all honesty, I don't think that squadhopping is a problem. It's just one of the aspects of this game that will forever exist, and there's no point in complaining about it because you are not going to change anything with these complaints. If you really do want to stop squadhopping for your personal reason, then by all means, but think out a GOOD plan...I agree that it is better to be proactive and address an issue, but be wise lol. But to me, trying to stop squadhopping is like trying to stop someone from dying....while you may have temporary influence, in the end, it is inevitable and cannot be stopped.

[Reaver]

In all honesty, I don't think that squadhopping is a problem. It's just one of the aspects of this game that will forever exist, and there's no point in complaining about it because you are not going to change anything with these complaints. If you really do want to stop squadhopping for your personal reason, then by all means, but think out a GOOD plan...I agree that it is better to be proactive and address an issue, but be wise lol. But to me, trying to stop squadhopping is like trying to stop someone from dying....while you may have temporary influence, in the end, it is inevitable and cannot be stopped.

As I was saying before, I think squad hopping will always be around, but I don't think it should be (or has to be) as bad as it is today. Maybe people that currently squad hop so much would realize the negative effects they're having on the competition.

It's comforting to know that you agree, shows me that you do have some common sense.

What did you have in mind that constitutes a good plan? I don't have any, I just thought that logically proving the point that squad hoppers are destroying competition might allow some people to rethink their actions (or think about them for the first time). Aside from that, I've got nothing.

[LaG KiLLeR]

It's comforting to know that you agree, shows me that you do have some common sense.

What did you have in mind that constitutes a good plan? I don't have any, I just thought that logically proving the point that squad hoppers are destroying competition might allow some people to rethink their actions (or think about them for the first time). Aside from that, I've got nothing.

Well personally, I don't think squadhopping destroys competition so I wouldn't bother proposing ideas. I like the fact that people have the freedom to choose what squads to join and decide how long they want to stay on the squad...if a squad is unable to keep it's members, then there must be a reason why (whether it's inactivity, lack of good leadership, recruiting the wrong people, etc). I think simple action can be taken....if you don't like squadhoppers, don't recruit them.

Although positive reinforcement may seem like a great idea, I don't agree with the rewarding system for multiple reasons. First, the whole concept is based on incentive theory, where the whole emphasis of this system is to make people become dependent on some external factor (reward/recognition)....Secondly, it's unfair from the start, not everyone has an equal chance of being recognized and rewarded. Unless you implemented this system starting with a clean slate where everyone starts out as "loyal", it's already biased and favors a certain group of people from the get go and that's not democratic...

Squadhopping hasn't destroyed competition, it's the fact that there's a lack of new incoming TWL-worthy players compared to those exiting TWL veterans. This has always been the trend, while new players come, old players go. The reason why competition may not feel as good as it was before if certainly for that reason, take this analogy. Think of an escalator, and people in front of you are "superior" and people behind you are "inferior". It is constantly moving upwards, and at one point or another, the person ahead of you will finally step off the escalator, while a new person may enter the escalator....this is the trend bro, learn to accept it. The pioneers have retired, and the new generation have entered.

[Reaver]

Well personally, I don't think squadhopping destroys competition so I wouldn't bother proposing ideas. I like the fact that people have the freedom to choose what squads to join and decide how long they want to stay on the squad...if a squad is unable to keep it's members, then there must be a reason why (whether it's inactivity, lack of good leadership, recruiting the wrong people, etc). I think simple action can be taken....if you don't like squadhoppers, don't recruit them.

Although positive reinforcement may seem like a great idea, I don't agree with the rewarding system for multiple reasons. First, the whole concept is based on incentive theory, where the whole emphasis of this system is to make people become dependent on some external factor (reward/recognition)....Secondly, it's unfair from the start, not everyone has an equal chance of being recognized and rewarded. Unless you implemented this system starting with a clean slate where everyone starts out as "loyal", it's already biased and favors a certain group of people from the get go and that's not democratic...

Squadhopping hasn't destroyed competition, it's the fact that there's a lack of new incoming TWL-worthy players compared to those exiting TWL veterans. This has always been the trend, while new players come, old players go. The reason why competition may not feel as good as it was before if certainly for that reason, take this analogy. Think of an escalator, and people in front of you are "superior" and people behind you are "inferior". It is constantly moving upwards, and at one point or another, the person ahead of you will finally step off the escalator, while a new person may enter the escalator....this is the trend bro, learn to accept it. The pioneers have retired, and the new generation have entered.

So do you think squad hopping has no effect on competition or that it has a positive effect on competition and why? I think you're confusing the freedom to change squads with people that squad hop constantly. No, they're not the same thing. Having the freedom to come and go gives you the opportunity to squadhop but it doesn't necessarily force you to be a squadhopper. Also, if you do happen to think that squad hopping promotes competition then maybe you think that everyone should leave their squads constantly? Also, read my previous posts as to why squad hopping hurts competition and see if you can provide more reasons why you think it helps. I've only seen one and it's outweighed by all of the problems it creates. Keep in mind, this isn't black and white, I'm not saying that all squad hopping is bad or that all squad loyalty is bad, it's important to have both, but it's best when people lean towards squad loyalty as opposed to right now where people lean towards squad hopping.

As for your escalator analogy, I don't know if you're talking about me personally but I've been on top of this zone for quite a while now, sure I'm not as good as I was a year or two ago but that's just for lack of interest. I'd still consider myself pretty good. Also, I probably recognized that trend before you even started playing this game

[DankNuggets]

As for your escalator analogy, I don't know if you're talking about me personally but I've been on top of this zone for quite a while now, sure I'm not as good as I was a year or two ago but that's just for lack of interest. I'd still consider myself pretty good. Also, I probably recognized that trend before you even started playing this game

even if it's not what he meant by that analogy, it could just as easily be applied by accepting that there isn't enough people stepping on that escalator to accomodate all the ones leaving. (note here i don't apply top of the escalator to top players in the game, time played /= skill, i apply it to time).

Stretch the analogy a bit further. This leads to people walking up and down the escalotor (squadhopping) in the sense that while they aren't leaving TWL, there's nobody to take their place, besides someone else already on the escalator (more squadhopping). If several people domino and hop from the squad, i see 3 things happening. 1) the squad doesn't fill the gaps, dissolves or just falls in competitiveness. 2) the squad fills the gaps by recruiting new players from pubs, just not from other squads. 3) the squad recruits from other squads, causing squad hopping via the domino effect and the cycle continues.

I don't know how it was back in the glory days of TWL, but it would seem that people didn't drop their squads because it was an honor to be on one. Nowadays, if a "decent" player drops, they'll have no problem finding a squad, because there's not enough "new" competition to recruit instead. Maybe it hasn't come to this 100% yet, but it's bound to happen as fewer people join the game. Also, the fact that squads are more willing to recruit a hopper that's got "experience" from being on several "veteran" squads over someone they'd have to train, or is just less skilled.

[Zeebu]

fuking great guys now my brains are leaking out of my ears fucking graet

[Imperian]

Heh. People who hop squads do so because they haven't found a squad they want to stay on. I was always against the waiting rule... but even i can say that increasing it would leave to mass chaos and in the end would leave tw with less players.

As to rewards for loyal players... they already get an award from being with people they trust or have known for a long time... they don't need anything else.