Trench Wars Government

[Pure_Luck]

I think this would make it easier to change things than our current process.

[Kontrolz]

I think this would make it easier to change things than our current process.

How cute.

[Lemmin]

Well, the spirit of the idea is OK, but the devil is in the details as always. Theres a few clarifications needed:

1) Are only "government officials" allowed to suggest changes? If so, there needs to be some way of ensuring they will listen to all suggestions fairly and reply within a reasonable amount of time to them. On the other hand, if anyone can make a suggestion, whats the point of having an elected "government"?

2) The voting system needs to be clarified: how do we nominate people, or run for office? How do we vote on officials? Once in office, how long do people stay in office? On what criteria may people be removed from office? How will you stop abuse/rigging of the voting system?

3) The method of suggesting/voting/enacting ideas needs clarfication. How long will it take to suggest, public vote, staff vote and SYSOP vote on a suggestion? If it takes too long, this is just another pure_luck inspired red tape way of getting nothing done while generating a lot of noise, just like every previous committe, consultation and town hall meeting. If it happens too quickly, people who don't play regularly won't get a chance to vote.

4) Who will implement ideas? If a lot of changes are passed by the system, it will mean massive workload for the bot programmers - so even if something is "passed into law" it might not happen for weeks, months, or ever. Surely there should be a stage where suggestions are evaluated to see how possible they are to implement, and how long they are likely to take. Something thats impossible to do shouldn't get voted on. We should take into account that the bot programmers may not be neutral on certain ideas either.

5) How are all stages of the process going to be overseen? With so many people in the loop theres a lot of scope for a valid idea to be sidelined or kicked out for personal reasons. Whats to stop the system being abused? How will you prevent corruption?

6) How will this system help all those casual players who don't read the forums, don't have time to get involved in politics, or don't understand enough to take part in this (since its clear it will be complicated)?

I can't help feeling that this is going to create a HUGE amount of extra work for staff, slow any changes down, and make a lot of people unhappy - after all, the public voting idea didn't exactly generate a contented population!

From my cynical point of view, this idea seems like an attempt to appease the people who have been calling for some kind of voting system for staff, but I fear it will result in a massive reduction in efficiency - everyone knows a (benign) dictatorship is the most efficient form of government, and a democracy is the second least efficient...

I think TW needs LESS democracy - we just need strong leadership from the top (which has been lacking for many years). I applaud the idea of giving everyone a say in how the zone is run, but in practice I think I'd rather live in an enlightened dictatorship, and I'm afraid this is all going to end in tears. After all, those people with time and inclination to run for "government" are probably the last people we actually want in charge of things....

LEM

[Money]

lets not be so gay, make some decisions and stick with em.......NO NEED FOR A NERD GOVERNMENT

you would solve a lot of fucking complaints as soon as you allow widescreen res in all arenas........ DO U REALLY NEED SOME NERD GOVERNMENT TO TELL U THAT?

[laureth]

here comes the tw govt. lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala lalalalalalallaallalalalalalalalalalalalalaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Kolar]

lets not be so gay, make some decisions and stick with em.......NO NEED FOR A NERD GOVERNMENT

you would solve a lot of fucking complaints as soon as you allow widescreen res in all arenas........ DO U REALLY NEED SOME NERD GOVERNMENT TO TELL U THAT?

We need a better process for vetting and implementing ideas. Right now there's a lot of different opinions on where to take the zone, if you push one way as a staffer you risk pissing people off. You can't please everyone but if you give them a process to make change, at least give them a shot (because not everyone can become a Mod, an ER or SMod) then there's a chance they won't feel as disenfranchised as many do under the current system. There's too many disconnected people working on things like pet projects and too many things overlooked.

This is PL's idea but I'll give my opinion on how it should operate and what I think he's going for.

1) Are only "government officials" allowed to suggest changes? If so, there needs to be some way of ensuring they will listen to all suggestions fairly and reply within a reasonable amount of time to them. On the other hand, if anyone can make a suggestion, whats the point of having an elected "government"?

Anyone can submit a "bill".

The point is to have a process including regular players deciding on issues. Anyone can make a suggestion but the decision rests with the different levels of "Government".

2) The voting system needs to be clarified: how do we nominate people, or run for office? How do we vote on officials? Once in office, how long do people stay in office? On what criteria may people be removed from office? How will you stop abuse/rigging of the voting system?

I'm sure PL will open a new sub-forum for those purposes.

PL said 3 month terms. All votes can be registered on the forum through polls.

3) The method of suggesting/voting/enacting ideas needs clarfication. How long will it take to suggest, public vote, staff vote and SYSOP vote on a suggestion? If it takes too long, this is just another pure_luck inspired red tape way of getting nothing done while generating a lot of noise, just like every previous committe, consultation and town hall meeting. If it happens too quickly, people who don't play regularly won't get a chance to vote.

Most likely a Submission Forum can be created.

Voting can be done in public on the specific thread.

The Staffers involved by the nature of their job should check and respond to other forums. The players involved if they do not respond or do not get involved in it can be replaced. That said if there's a majority already there's no need for late votes.

4) Who will implement ideas? If a lot of changes are passed by the system, it will mean massive workload for the bot programmers - so even if something is "passed into law" it might not happen for weeks, months, or ever. Surely there should be a stage where suggestions are evaluated to see how possible they are to implement, and how long they are likely to take. Something thats impossible to do shouldn't get voted on. We should take into account that the bot programmers may not be neutral on certain ideas either.

Changes to the bots should be done through TWCore.org. That said I believe there's a lot in this zone which requires a process described in this thread. If an idea requires a lot of coding or anything else at the very least it will give it additional attention and can be prioritized as such.

5) How are all stages of the process going to be overseen? With so many people in the loop theres a lot of scope for a valid idea to be sidelined or kicked out for personal reasons. Whats to stop the system being abused? How will you prevent corruption?

I believe one public player should be chosen/elected to be a sort of chairman. Staffers can also run for this position potentially to oversee and review "bills". Anyone who's very active I believe. It's a drawn out process, it's not for quick fix things or pushing through ideas as quickly as possible. Again I believe our problem isn't identifying where we need to work on but figuring out a process of deciding whether it should go through.

6) How will this system help all those casual players who don't read the forums, don't have time to get involved in politics, or don't understand enough to take part in this (since its clear it will be complicated)?

We should utilize the poll module on our bots and create an entensive campign to get people involved. If not entirely through the Forum

From my cynical point of view, this idea seems like an attempt to appease the people who have been calling for some kind of voting system for staff, but I fear it will result in a massive reduction in efficiency - everyone knows a (benign) dictatorship is the most efficient form of government, and a democracy is the second least efficient...

We don't lack efficiency but we lack organization and some defined processes and people willing to get things done. Just a couple of ideas like Racism rules, Screen resolution and more (look in changes to SSCU Trench Wars...). If someone had an idea for public right now all they can do is write a forum post, 99% of the time it's ignored and I'd say about half the time it's good on substance but lacks a person to actually implement it by making the judgement call whether it's good or bad. And that's not to say it's a failing at the top. We need to see this as it is, a volunteer job on a 2D Spaceship game. We're not paid and we don't have the ability to devote full time hours to the game, and take away certain privileges and we are just players ourselves. When I think about making changes to Public it's a daunting task but also one I'm not entirely sure I alone or any staffer should be making alone, and lacking input from the public or any interested party doesn't help. So yes worst case scenario bad ideas are implemented and this doesn't work. But maybe it will get some people interested.



Short form:

1) We need a Chairman/Person guiding the process unless PL wants to take on that role
2) We need a Non-Game and Non-Forum solution (website possibly) or a forum upgrade to allow new users to register without Admin. support.

[Kontrolz]

We need a better process for vetting and implementing ideas. Right now there's a lot of different opinions on where to take the zone, if you push one way as a staffer you risk pissing people off. You can't please everyone but if you give them a process to make change, at least give them a shot (because not everyone can become a Mod, an ER or SMod) then there's a chance they won't feel as disenfranchised as many do under the current system. There's too many disconnected people working on things like pet projects and too many things overlooked.

Again, sounds great on paper. I saw the public committee fail badly. This is the same idea but with MORE people and MORE bureaucracy.

[fLaReD]

mccain for sysop!!!

[HateTheFake]

I dont see why we need such a process thou. If you want 100 percent feedback have people use ?help with a suggestion. Then create a poll in that arena.

Example:

?help I believe that subbing someone out in a twdd without full health should be delayed til they have 100 percent energy.

Now if the mods think this is an idea that can be implemented. Make a poll in a twdd arena (the arena in which the most people will be effected by such an idea...pub idea= pub poll, basing idea= twbd/?go base idea) Maybe make a limitation so there is 1 poll a week max. (so theres no need for 50 bots for polls)

[Kolar]

The problem with in-game polling is that it's almost always ignored and never used. This way if you do decide to run and identify as a Baser, Jav player or whatever at least that person is responsible to take part in the process and represent those within that community and the entire player base. If someone thinks they're not they can take over when their term ends or if there is limited initial activity in voting.

[HateTheFake]

Who represents the pubbers? Also voting on the forums is too inconsistent. It doesnt and wont get everyone's votes for a few reasons.

1- it takes forever to get registered on forums(some constant things ive heard time and time again)
2- some people prefer not to join forums or dont even know we have them. (I would think there would be a log in message of some kind like Welcome to Trench Wars, Feel free to visit our forums at ectectect.

[LaG KiLLeR]

Each day, Trench Wars take significant steps towards communism.

As someone posted earlier, the spirit and intent of an internet bureaucracy may be genuine...but unfortunately, the majority of the TW population (including some current staff) are in no position to handle such responsibility.

Basically, it will be a repeat of high school prom where the voters (based on popularity = largest squads will likely be voted in), you'll have illegitimate representatives like Thunder/Quicksand's Izor or Eelam...skills aside, they lack the necessary maturity to make any decisions regarding others...

This will likely result in an unresponsive "government" because the "TW politicians" will have their own personal agendas.


EDIT: As HTF mentioned, the voting process wouldn't be a good representative sample of the TW population either. Already a failed attempt from the start...

[Lemmin]

There's too many disconnected people working on things like pet projects and too many things overlooked.

If you take away pet projects, you'll find it a lot hard to get people willing to do bot programming, event creation and website work. As you pointed out elsewhere in your post, this is a volunteer staffed game - if you try and mandate what your creative staff should work on, they'll soon take their time elsewhere.... I'm sure they'll listen to suggestions, but having to prioritise what they may see as stupid is going to be pretty de-motivating.

Anyone can submit a "bill".

The point is to have a process including regular players deciding on issues. Anyone can make a suggestion but the decision rests with the different levels of "Government".

So if anyone can submit a bill, what is the point of having elected governance? What job will they perform? It will just slow things down.... going straight from public suggestion to public vote without having elected people sitting in the middle of the process will save time and prevent corruption. (Of course I'm just being pedantic, I know its pointless to pass every suggestion on to vote, you'll end up with too much spam and therefore no voting happening - but I'm trying to play devils advocate and point out where the problems with this idea lay).

We don't lack efficiency but we lack organization and some defined processes and people willing to get things done. Just a couple of ideas like Racism rules, Screen resolution and more (look in changes to SSCU Trench Wars...). If someone had an idea for public right now all they can do is write a forum post, 99% of the time it's ignored and I'd say about half the time it's good on substance but lacks a person to actually implement it by making the judgement call whether it's good or bad. And that's not to say it's a failing at the top. We need to see this as it is, a volunteer job on a 2D Spaceship game. We're not paid and we don't have the ability to devote full time hours to the game, and take away certain privileges and we are just players ourselves. When I think about making changes to Public it's a daunting task but also one I'm not entirely sure I alone or any staffer should be making alone, and lacking input from the public or any interested party doesn't help. So yes worst case scenario bad ideas are implemented and this doesn't work. But maybe it will get some people interested.
[/b]

I may be way out of touch, but I think the two current limiting factors to getting changes made is someone willing to say "yes thats a good idea" and someone with the time to implement it.

As I understand the process suggested by PL, he will still have final veto on any idea. That means he is still the person who has to say "yes, thats a good idea" at the end of the day. The whole of the rest of the "government" is simply acting as a filter and delaying system for any suggestions (and as somewhere for him to point and say "they told me to" when it goes wrong). Wouldn't it be better and much quicker if someone (be it PL, or anyone else willing to make tough decisions) just took suggestions and said "don't be stupid" or "yes, get it done"?

Once a decision is made, do we have enough implementers to do it? I've always got the impression that mmav is super-busy already. I may be wrong, but I suspect the zone needs more (trustworthy) development staff. If there isn't the resource to implement ideas then thats where the bottleneck is, and voting through lots of stuff isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. (Resolution limit and racism rules are special cases, but most changes to pub, TWD, elim etc will require bot work).

LEM

[Kolar]

You're right LaG KiLLeR that it has the potential to put immature people in a position of responsibility but the problem is we can't have them in staff. But for someone like, Izor while I believe the above is true and staff should have a standard I also don't question his devotion or intent in trying to make this a better zone. Not everyone can be a Sysop but we can make a better system which doesn't exclude as many people working towards the same goal. Management will always fall to the most responsible and the most qualified but that along with knowledge and ability doesn't always go hand-in-hand.

1) This isn't just a system to push through simple bot break-fix and upgrade ideas. There's a lot which falls outside the creative/coding side of things. Twcore.org is probably a better place to suggest bot changes.

2) Players can take part in the process of voting on specific bills representing the community. Obviously PL has final say as in the purposed system he can veto any "Bill" to keep things under control but the idea is to give him and others guidance in this sort of formal process. I don't think spam will be a problem.

3) I don't think the limiting factor is the ability to actually go out and fix it. Hell if I had an idea on what was popular concerning the Screen Res or the Levi Terrier combo (being overpowered) I would go get it fixed. But I don't know which change is more popular and little to guide me. Right now we have almost no way of gauging public opinion, no current bot poll, no forum poll or website poll I believe will either. And I don't buy the "well go ask some people playing public". People just want to play their game, we need to get them out of their element, if not this then something not only on the site, not on the forum and not purely a bot module.

[Izor]

I think when it comes to WBs, you'll get adequate WBs from voting on here, same with javs and basers, but when it comes to things like publics, you will never get the right people because they're too new to register for forums. Instead like I say every time you're getting the same people who have been around for ever, and a lot of them dont even play the damn pubs anymore.

warbirds are low maintenance anyway...but one thing i would try and fix would be FCs in TWDD. Vote Izor (R) for warbird committee 2009!