Do you play on a Lapop, or have a widescreen computer?

[Jack]

This makes too much sense for people Burzum, I have used this setting as well. The bottom line is many of the people who are complaining just want to use widescreen because they know it's exploitable in a competitive atmosphere. Logic is not what they seek my friend.

It saddens me to see they are even giving this a test run, there is nothing to test. The people who wanted the lift are getting it, it's not like after the test they are going to say, "yes you guys are right, don't change the res".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Soul Survivor
Jack,

First all let me say something you carry yourself well in both the forums and in the game. Also you're very good. With that said, the points you have made have been well thought out. However, I don't think raising the cap will make that much of difference. Some may exploit it yes, but it won't help them out as much as you think. For the widescreen users that play this game, it will be an opportunity to play this game fairly. Both aiming and dodging well rely on knowing how to "angle" yourself into the right position. With the cap that we have now that's impossible for me at least.(Lining up a good shot)

I also own a 21" KDS Crt, although it's at my dads house because there is no room for it here. I owned when playing with that monitor. I could use that if I wanted but it's more convenient for me to use this monitor.

What made trench wars the most competitive and most popular zone, was the one hit kill system. The cap kept everyone on a fair playing field. Now it doesn’t, it makes it gives those who don't have a CRT an advantage. That's not what the "Cap" was intended to do. I know I'm babbling. I'm tired. Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from.
Yes I understand where you are coming from my friend and I appreciate the kind words.

I'm mainly just worried about those who don't have a widescreen since they are going to be put at a disadvantage against those who do in competitive situations. Even if it's only a small amount it all adds up.

Keep in mind I have both a CRT and WS so I can use whatever, just trying to do whats best for the community.

I do admit, I am stubborn at times and this is one of my downfalls and this may be a situation where I'm just not seeing the light. Whenever I think of this happening though it makes me think of the past when I'd be on 2100 res going up against people utilizing smaller res and they wouldn't stand a chance even if they were a better player.

I understand it's not the same since we aren't comparing 2100 res to 1028, it's just the only comparison I have at the moment. I know you can WB so I'm sure you can see how even though WS is overall less pixels on 1440 compared to 1280 if properly utilized it can be an advantage.

I'm rambling now as well, please know that as I complete this post I understand where you are coming from and respect the opposing view.

[Jack]

Lower res doesn't help with rushing from my experience. You can't see the bullets coming until too late, higher res allows you to better anticipate your enemies next movement and time your rushes better.



Originally Posted by Noah
You're not even making sense or a single argument as of how there is an advantage.
Many of the best warbirds fight side to side simply because of how the game works, it's easier to dodge in this manner etc. Of course some don't fit the mold and you can play the devils advocate to my example but please surprise me by not for I already expect it.

Although it is overall less pixels the widescreen is still at an advantage because of the side to side fighting. Most of the time when you die in a DD it's from top to bottom or at an angle, there is a reason for this and why many of us stay in side to side battles causing the most skilled to win.

I have a widescreen as well and I'm going to use it if they allow it in leagues, it's optimal for dodging bullets. If people think a squares better then please, go for it.

I'm advocating for the res to stay how it is because I've experienced the game from 1998 on in a competitive atmosphere. I know first hand how res changes the game because it changed me. If you want to cause a gap again because of res, this is going to cause it. Even if small, a good player is going to take that small advantage and use it.

Again, we understand that widescreen is overall less pixels. But it's still advantageous to use it over 1280x1024 due to strategies that can be utilized.

I apologize to those who have read my posts in other threads regarding this same issue for I have to continue repeating my argument.

Please know I love you all and understand your reasonings for wanting the resolution changed. I should as well be advocating for the change since I have a wide screen. I am looking beyond my own needs and realize it would not be healthy for the community. A large number of people still do not have wide screen and it would create a gap due to res much like we had before, people are going to abuse the strategy of fighting side to side in competitive games. Including myself if provided the opportunity.

edit: you can change your settings to run the game unstretched on a widescreen, I've been doing it for a long time. Burzum posted instructions earlier in the thread.

[Jack]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah
You're putting too much into it Jack.

Players play after what is the most efficiently in every situation. I've watched LD finals, and played in LD playoffs myself. It doesn't happen that often, because of the fastpaced gameplay. Since the gameplay is exactly the same, it won't affect it too much. The situation still change so often that you won't see it too often. The Y axis of the game is used as much as the X axis, in one way or another. It might give WS players some advantages in certain situations, and exactly equal disadvantages in other situations. There are several other factors like this in the game already, doing exactly this. Not to mention how it works cross-legaues. It's viable everywhere, but if you theorycraft very long and hard you can find advantages and disadvantages everywhere.

The argument gets more merit when it's coming from you, but don't forget that LAME is also an oldtimer. He played before and after the cap, and he has a different view than you. That makes it impossible to me to just rely on of you to be right, and neglect my several years of experience, even if I didn't experience the cap change in a competitive setting.

It doesn't hurt to try it out for the entire off-season atleast, as it will be tested by experienced players. The game needs something to appeal to even more players to not die off. If we don't do this we're putting a quickly growing group of players play with stretched graphics, windowed mode, or forcing them to both know how to and have the ability to change the monitor settings.

I will continue to advocate for this, as I see it as a step in the right direction.

For the record, I do not think we should increase the viewing areal of the screen. This is about giving the equivalent to widescreen users, not giving anyone more.
Yes my friend I tend to put too much into many things and for this I apologize. It is one of my faults, I have admitted before I am stubborn if I believe in something.

Please know I do not speak to put much into it, I speak to give my words a feeling of fullness.

You presented your point much better than most and it caused me to think about it in a different manner and for this I thank you. You are correct that we can theorycraft to any conclusion, I have stated before that people can play the devils advocate to any comment to snuff out something I say in anticipation so I fully feel you.

I may have misunderstood your comment but I shall still apologize for coming across like just because I have played for many years means my word would be final. I hope over time you see I am not like this, many people who I even consider friends allow ego's and 'I've played this game for longer so I'm superior' outlooks to blind them from others views; this is not me. I love all, if you started today or prior to me I value all the same.

I realize now more than ever my fight to stop this change is growing ever more impossible.

If I can't stop this change, please do not go further than 1400 res. If you lift it fully it'll ruin the game again like it was before. I used 2100 res and still can, doesn't matter how good you are if your res is 1600 or less the advantage is too great to overcome.

Years ago I was good not because of skill but resolution. I am nothing now, I feel I can hold my own and this is only because I know all the tricks people try and use. I'm the old boxer who can survive for 12 rounds because of experience but loses the decision. Bad analogy and for this I apologize, I was watching some greatest moments on ESPN earlier .

I advocate for love of all of man, I apologize for I have strayed even from my own mantra. my soul weeps; i move on. I realize people are unhappy on their current resolutions and I should support my fellow man instead of being selfish and fighting for what I feel is right when the majority opposes me. I love you, I concede.

See you in TW,

Jack Kiefer

[Jack]

I voted no to raising the res simply because it does create an unfair advantage, back from like 99-01 when I was a lot better than I am now I used 2048x1536 or something like that and I know for a fact although I hate admitting it that is why I was as dominate as I was. Right when I returned to playing and was using 1280 res the game was much more of a challenge and people I could easily kill before became much more of a challenge and I had to adapt my playstyle. Even to this day I still don't think I've adjusted, for a long long time I never really had to use radar much and now it's a big part of the game that I don't think I've fully adjusted too sadly.

Anyway if you eliminate the res cap thats fine and I'll go back up to using 2048 res and it would be fun but trust me it wouldn't be good for the community and trying to have multiple competitive teams in TWL. Even back on Elusive if I remember right we would only recruit people with 1600+ res (referring back to first gen elusive) because it made that much of a difference in duels. Even if you're better than me I can wear on your patience and stay away never dying from strays or anything from a distance and eventually everyone has a breaking point where they are going to play differently from being annoyed etc.

From someone who has played the game for about 10 years and played competitively on both ends of the spectrum the game is much more of a challenge now and is based more on skill than hardware.

edit: and with people with wide screens although it sucks with how it looks and understand fully your position because I've tried it, we both sure as hell know that it would create an advantage from side to side in TWL. Yes you may see a bit less on the up and down and overall its a bit less overall pixels you can't deny the fact that it would create an advantage. From my own experience a majority of the fights happen from the sides and most good players(not all) use side to side fighting as a strategy because it's much easier to dodge due to momentum of your ship etc. Can't deny it and if you do you're just shooting for an advantage.



Good point but as I remember and correct me if I'm wrong the sysop put it as 1280x1240 because Trenchwars base was specifically set up for that resolution.

And I think even public is competitive, I know for myself the reason I play any video game from Subspace to call of duty on xbox or even pacman at the bowling alley I play to win and in order to win you have to be competitive with the competition.

I guess I assumed that most of this was regarding how it would impact the competitive nature of the game, TWLJ-D-B since that is the reason why most of us play the game. I know for myself if there wasn't a league I wouldn't log on and I'm sure many more feel the same.

People in pub may play more for just fun and thats great if it's for fun they also probably don't care what res it is, for those who only care about competition like myself adjusting the res again does have a game changing impact.

From my previous post I attempted to also point out why the impact on the game would not be positive, again from a competitive standpoint which I feel is the heart and soul of what is left of this zone without it what do we have?

[Jack]

Aye overall it is less pixels but due to many factors it's much easier to dodge shots generally from side to side, just watch some TWJD or TWDDs and actually pay attention to how some of the good players dodge a majority of their shots and you'll be able to see what I'm talking about. It's more of an advantage to have 200 more pixels on the side and lose a bit overall.

Feel free to keep supporting the changing of res, I have a widescreen as well and can switch over and abuse the res much like I did prior to the resolution restriction in TW.

I'm just trying to give an example of how much res can make a difference and why I feel it would be unhealthy for the community from my own personal experience with the first resolution change. It feels like the majority of people who are for changing the restrictions haven't experienced competitive play prior to res restriction, honestly I feel like more people would understand where I'm coming from if they did. Probably just not posting.

Having a higher res even if small has an extremely large impact on how good you're going to do on average. Even now someone on 1024 res compared to 1280 res on the side to side battles which as I pointed out before is utilized more is at a huge disadvantage. The difference from the widescreen 1400's compared to 1280 is the same impact pixel wise, roughly 200.

I'm sure many other people experienced the same thing but I was extremely impacted by resolution and know first hand the advantage it creates. Prior to the resolution restriction I was running 1900 res when the majority was nowhere near to that and it directly impacted how good I appeared. Even people on 1600 res would be at a disadvantage if I wanted to be lame and stay right out of range of there screen but still see them on mine. You can do the same with 1400 vs. 1280.

I was a great warbird then and sadly in my opinion just because of the resolution I had. Once the restriction was removed I struggled to get back to normal and soon found I wasn't able too. For years I blamed it on just not having as much time to play since I had a job, lived with girlfriend and too many bills to play and I was better in high school because I just played way too much subspace. Once I stopped being stubborn I realized I was making excuses just so I could blame it on something else in hope that staff would remove the res restriction. Obviously a stupid reason since one person complaining does nothing.

Many of you probably don't know me or even care what I say but for those who do and knew me prior to the restriction the difference in how good I am is drastic, I'm a complete pile of shit now in comparison. I'm not the only one who experienced this either, many warbirds from that time declined and some adapted better than I have obviously. Resolution impacts the game and it can't be denied, yes even more than your fuzzy widescreen graphics.

Everyone keeps saying that our restriction is unhealthy for the population, I think it was the best thing that happened to it in terms of creating competition and equaling the playing field. I should be all for the restriction being lifted due to how it impacted me but I'm not, the community is more important than what this fucking pile of shit who rambles too much thinks.

Cya in TW my friends.

[Jack]

Forgive me for the length of my posting although it was only that of copy and paste copy and paste paste and copy that which I shall soon paste.

Would you please listen? Not with that which our mind is trained to do for our ears are not sufficient.

I know though that only an underdeveloped mind like the one that lives within my crust would ask such a question to an educated man and I am sorry my friends for subjecting you to such an uneducated question. My dear friends, this is why I speak with my withered soul and not that which resides within.

[DankNuggets]

Forgive me for the length of my posting although it was only that of copy and paste copy and paste paste and copy that which I shall soon paste.

Would you please listen? Not with that which our mind is trained to do for our ears are not sufficient.

I know though that only an underdeveloped mind like the one that lives within my crust would ask such a question to an educated man and I am sorry my friends for subjecting you to such an uneducated question. My dear friends, this is why I speak with my withered soul and not that which resides within.

I'm not going to copy/paste a bunch of old arguments or in-line quote everything you said but there are a few lines i don't agree with.

1. "Not everyone has a wide screen monitor and it would be unfair to cater to them"

When the game was made, everyone had 4:3 and very few if any had widescreen. So it was a no-brainer to cater to 4:3 monitors. Now, a large % (though maybe not the majority) of players have widescreen monitors. It's only going to increase to the point where the vast majority have widescreens because they simply do not sell 4:3 monitors in most stores today. The idea that it's unfair to force people to buy WS monitors to stay on par is going to be offset completely by people having to go out of their way to get a 4:3 monitor if their widescreen doesn't support that ratio. We can wait until that tipping point if we must, but it IS going to happen eventually if this game doesn't die in the next few years.

2. Any good player plays side to side.

I think I'm going to address this more later, since you repeated yourself a dozen times and i took notes to try to stay on track. But right now, I'm saying that they only pay side to side because of the advantage you talk about even in 4:3. There's 33% more screen in one direction, so that's the way people play. There's no advantage to playing top bottom because everyone is relatively the same (unless already playing on 1024x786) and it's more dangerous than left/right. Given the knowledge that the opponent's resolution is smaller top/bottom, what GOOD warbird wouldn't take advantage of that and then force his play top/bottom? It's just a byproduct of the status quo resolutions, not an immutable "truth" about dueling. I think there's more to come with this.

3. "Even just a 1% advantage... well I think you know what I mean with..."

I think you understand that differences in lag, while beyond our control (assuming good faith) equate to much more than a 1% advantage. We've come to agree in other threads and this one that a larger resolution negates to some effect this lag advantage. Not to mention that you're argument is flawed in that they aren't on level ground to begin with. I don't like the thought of this specifically helping laggots, and i don't think it will as much as it will help those who are at a disadvantage due to lag.

4. "People are selfish for wanting widescreen because it is an advantage for them"

I've mentioned many times I can't play 1440 even on my widescreen. I'd love to play 1680 because of the advantage, but since that's not up for debate, I don't think you can consider me selfish for wanting to include a resolution that my computer doen't support. That is, unless you think I'm selfish for now taking advantage of my superior top/bottom resolution when fighting people in 1440x900 when i have 1280x1024. I welcome the "challege" of having to not fight left/right everytime "because that's how good wb pilots always fight". I also say that people are being selfish in knowing that some of our players are ALREADY at a disadvantage by playing in distorted or smaller resolutions. They know that after the change, their small advantage will be lost, in favor of the other side. I might just be playing devil's advocate as you say, but it's to illustrate that not everything is in perfect balance, and that it can't be. There will always be pros and cons; differing strategies. Lose one advantage for another.. its not so easy to say one's ok and the other is unfair. Also, just to mention for a minute the impetus for even wanting 1680: it's not so that I have an advantage over someone with smaller resolutions-- it's so that I can compensate for poor dodging in situations where somone lags so badly i can't see their shots in time to dodge. It also prevents careless strays.. which i'd hardly call an advantage OVER someone so much as an advantage equally shared by all players who increase resolution. It's not so I can win 1v1 battles in a lame fashion, it's so I can avoid "unfair" deaths.

5. "Most of the time when you die in a dd it's from a top to bottom shot."

You say that left/right is the most effective way to play. Then why did you die to someone who was using a different strategy? Could it be that they are just as good top/bottom as left/right, and that you aren't? Don't take that as an insult, but something to think about. Maybe in trying to corral your enemy you're open to attack from the sides which you aren't trying to attack from. They obviously did better top/bottom than left/right because they were able to kill you. In the same respect, you must get most of your kills top/bottom then right? In that case left/right play isn't ideal for killing, it's ideal for dodging. that's only half the game. So it's only ideal half the time.

6. You keep saying "I know what it's like to play with vast resolution differences. It wasn't fair, the opponent never had a chance".

By your own admission, the situations are NOT the same. We aren't talking about having a resolution so large the radar is redundant. We're talking about a few hundred pixels, something you don't have the experience in with having that small of an advantage, or you just have yet to share it. All talks of an invincible resolution are beyond the scope of this discussion. No one's denying that at some point you'd become unkillable when you have that big an advantage. It should be noted that this doesn't exclude anyone from gaining an advantage resolutionwise- it just forces them to use a different strategy to use their advantage.

7. I think I lost track of how many times you uttered the phrase "due to strategies that could be utilized".

On the other hand, there's an equal and opposite strategy to neutralize this. It all hinges on if you can get your opponent left/right when he's trying to fight you top/bottom instead. Before, it was a test of skill when you had the same resolutions and took the same attack angle. I'm going to counter with it's still a test of skill, to see which player successfully takes the advantageous angle, whether it be top/bottom for WS or left/right for 4:3. It does boil down to "could be utilized" because it could just as easily not be utilized by the skill of the other pilot in manuvering to gain the advantage for himself (which in this case is a different angle whereas before both players tried to get the same angle). It's a diffences between the "skill" in getting lucky on left/right shots and the "skill" in manuvering to get the best angle for the shot.

8. You said that many of the great warbirds were great not because of skill but because of hardware. You imply that it's not so anymore because there's a resolution cap.

Well the modem is still considered hardware. The playing field is far from level. I don't know most of the TWL players personally or their lag statistics, but speaking from personal experience, the majority of the players that beat me have a worse connection. Not saying there aren't a few who have equal connections, but most of my deaths are to overly fast/invisible bullets or my opponenet eating my shot and spitting it right back in my face. They are better simply because of hardware. Upgrading my hardware to minimize their hardware advantage seems fair in my book, especially when they have the option to do the same and I don't.

9. there are "many factors why side to side is better"

no, there's only one: there's more viewing area. think i touched on this one a few times already.

10. You made a comparison to having a pixel advantage by using 2100 horz. and your opponent having 1600.

You know that's not a useful comparison. for starters, it's over twice as big of a difference. After that, it's no different (1400 vs 1200) than 1200 vs. 1024, which is perfectly acceptable to everyone out there now. If it's not, then I say drop the TWL resolution to one that's fair to everybody, since that's your intentions. Better make it pretty low, seeing as how you're implying that even a minority of players with better resolutions isn't fair. Well that's what we have now, and unless you're in an uproar over that unfairness I can't understand how you're so upset over the potentail unfairness that will arise with the change. It's no greater than the current unfairness, and it addresses the concerns of several people who think they aren't being treated fairly.

I assure you that I am not 'smiling and nodding' while typing this up. This has been thoughtfully put together to address your posts. I am by no means the voice of a majority of players and I realize this. I'm not a popular player and I realize that many people will simply not listen to me and take your word because of this. I'm glad that you don't respond this way, and welcome any alternative views you might have. Also, if I'm assuming too much of your arguments, I apologize but I had to make sense of that wall of copy/past text you posted.

[Dutch_]

To staff:

Minor detail. I noticed ?go twbd3 doesnt have widescreen enabled yet. Also most of the hosted arenas but I understand thats allot of work, im cool with changing resolutions for hosted events.

[Exalt]

WAIT WTF?

1400x900 is not 1440x1024

you just made it so that widescreen get MORE pixels then 4:3 screen

1280x1024 is lower pixels then 1440x1024

thats bullshit, it was supposed to be 1400x900 not 1440x1024.... wtf

[Dutch_]

WAIT WTF?

1400x900 is not 1440x1024

you just made it so that widescreen get MORE pixels then 4:3 screen

1280x1024 is lower pixels then 1440x1024

thats bullshit, it was supposed to be 1400x900 not 1440x1024.... wtf

Riistar said that x900 was not posible and it had to be x1024. But no worries, i doubt many ppl will play with anything higher then 1440x900 because there are no 1440x1024 monitors (or they are very rare). Its not a logical aspect ratio. I got a 1680 x 1050 monitor and I cant select it. Maybe with some tricks and tweaks you can get 1440x1024 it to work on a big monitor. But I dunno. Anyone playing on this reso?

[Reaver]

See above points I made that were not refuted. Also see the point I made about how people that made the 'It's unfair, you guys have more pixels argument' don't come back and say that 1440 x 1024 is unfair, why? Because they don't give a shit about fairness, they just wanted their way regardless.

[Burnt]

You all of people should know that you can control the positioning of your opponent, I watched you keep two warbirds at a distance to you in a TWLD match for quite a while, and eventually 1v1. This isn't an attack on your play style, it's proof that you can control the positioning of your opponents.

If I'm using 1280x1024 and my opponent is on 1440x900 and I can control their position, how do they have an advantage over me?

See above points I made that were not refuted. Also see the point I made about how people that made the 'It's unfair, you guys have more pixels argument' don't come back and say that 1440 x 1024 is unfair, why? Because they don't give a shit about fairness, they just wanted their way regardless.

Why would they say 1440x1024 is unfair? They just want 1440x900, having it higher than that doesn't help them. Allowing 1440x1024 is the only way to allow 1440x900 and 1280x1024.

http://www.trenchwars.org/index.php?...ing&x=resgraph
59 names are on 1360x1024, 29 are on 1400x986, so it is possible to use resolutions with more total pixels than 1280x1024. Something should be done to prevent that.

If 1440x900 is now allowed, it would make sense to tell people it is now allowed. I suggest announcing this change in the news.txt and in the entrance message to the TWD arenas.

[Reaver]

If I'm using 1280x1024 and my opponent is on 1440x900 and I can control their position, how do they have an advantage over me?

Your question was, why can't a person with 1440 x 900 counter someone that's on 1280 x 1024, and my response was that you of all people know that you can control where you fight your opponent from, in terms of both distance to you and the side from which you're attacking/defending. For example, why can't a warbird rush you in TWLD if you intentionally don't fire unless they're at max range and not currently rushing you? The same tactic can be used against another warbird that doesn't want to fight you Left to Right.

Why would they say 1440x1024 is unfair? They just want 1440x900, having it higher than that doesn't help them. Allowing 1440x1024 is the only way to allow 1440x900 and 1280x1024.

Because it is unfair? Clearly they don't just want 1440 x 900, you state that 59 people are using a resolution higher than that.

Something should be done to prevent that.

Something should be done but nothing will be done, TW rarely backpedals and reconsiders a decision made.

[Dutch_]

?go base also doesnt support widescreen. Is there anyone from upper staff even active atm? I mean you change the resolution to widescreen without informing the community or posting in this thread. Most players that would like widescreen prolly dont even know it is enabled.

[PaulOakenfold]

Widescreen in basing is just plain unfair and you know it.