blackrazor, BanID #20549, Three Month Ban ... why please?

[Jason]

oh, that mosque comment was definitely not directed at you, eph. you're one of the most level headed guys around. i was just speaking to the rash of complaint threads that have been cropping up.

i'm going to talk to connection and see if it's even possible to dig up the kind of stats you're talking about.

[blackrazor]

i'm afraid i don't have specific numbers for you, but i do have a real world example of the system *gasp* actually working.

just yesterday a player was banned for excessive tk'ing. this ban managed to accidentally catch a squadmate of mine, not in game, and we were in between rounds of a jd match. in fact, the ban even caught one of our own ER's and i believe another player, too. connection happened to be online and i immediately brought it to his attention. within 5 minutes the issue was corrected.

while this example isn't the norm, it does illustrate that wrongly banned players will see their bans reversed. typically, the time frame isn't so swift as you have to go through the ban email process, but the only thing that will keep a wrongly banned player banned is if the player is too lazy and impatient to deal with the process.

side note: getting really tired of every minor "situation" getting blow so ridiculously out of proportion. you'd think we (tw staff) were trying to build a mosque in pub 0 or something.

Jason, I can sympathize with staff getting annoyed at complaints (no one likes wading through complaints, staff is no different from the rest of the world in this regard).

But keep in mind that if I knew who to contact and could also get it fixed within 5 minutes (such as in your personal example), then I wouldn't be complaining, either.

I had to figure out who to contact. Furthermore, I was rejected in connection's email reply, he simply did NOT believe me. It took me bringing it to staff's attention, and then staff advocating for me (especially one staff member in particular, who really went to bat for me), to sway Connection's opinion. It took players to guide me to what resources were available, and whom to contact, because none of this was obvious to me. It took, in total, hours of my time (which is valuable to me, anyways) to get this sorted. Just saying, with all due respect, that it makes a world of difference, when you are banned and are not on the inside track and don't know who to contact or what to do.

Also, I'm very lucky staff went to bat for me. As I already stated, if I had been new, or totally unknown to staff, or unliked, then I really have no idea how I would have been able to prove myself to Connection.

[Jason]

the thing is, blackrazor, your particular case is a rather unique one. you were caught under a netban. the player who truly deserves this ban likes to evade. you happen to utilize the same, relatively small, isp as this person.

you have to admit, it must have been easy (and quite logical) for connection to put 2 and 2 together and get 4. i don't think he acted unjustly. he did the best with the info he had in front of him. and in the end, everything worked out anyway.

there's really no deficiency to be pointed out here. the system worked.

[blackrazor]

the thing is, blackrazor, your particular case is a rather unique one. you were caught under a netban. the player who truly deserves this ban likes to evade. you happen to utilize the same, relatively small, isp as this person.

you have to admit, it must have been easy (and quite logical) for connection to put 2 and 2 together and get 4. i don't think he acted unjustly. he did the best with the info he had in front of him. and in the end, everything worked out anyway.

there's really no deficiency to be pointed out here. the system worked.

I understand how Connection followed protocol, and put 2 and 2 together towards what seemed like a sensible (at least, statistically likely) conclusion. I never disputed that.

I understand that it worked for me, and am grateful for it. Lucky me that staff went to bat for me, especially one in particular who vouched for me in a big personal way. Connection himself told me that made the difference in swaying him. I have all the email and chat logs, I am very meticulous that way. I feel lucky, literally. The flip side of being lucky, is considering that had I been unlucky (no one vouching for me), that would have left me without any recourse that I can honestly see.

Here's a real world example. Lets say I'm in a terrible car accident. The car's seat has a malfunction, and ejects me from the vehicle. Turns out to be a good thing, because leaking gasoline from the wreck soon makes the vehicle explode. I write the company to inform them that they really should look into that seat design from a safety standpoint. They write back, telling me that they really can't understand why I am complaining. I survived the accident, so everything is fine with the vehicle's safety. I point out that in most cases, ejection can result in serious injury or death. They tell me I'm worrying about nothing, because accidents are relatively rare with this vehicle, anyways (let's assume for the sake of this example, that they are correct, there are few accidents.)

[Ephemeral]

oh, that mosque comment was definitely not directed at you, eph. you're one of the most level headed guys around. i was just speaking to the rash of complaint threads that have been cropping up.

i'm going to talk to connection and see if it's even possible to dig up the kind of stats you're talking about.

List of what I think would be helpful staff stats

Number of ?help calls over last 30 days
Number of ?help calls over last 6 months
Number of ?help calls over last year

Percentage of ?help calls responded over last 30 days
Percentage of ?help calls responded over last 6 months
Percentage of ?help calls responded over last year

Number of bans investigated over last 30 days
Number of bans investigated over last 6 months
Number of bans investigated over last year

Number of bans implemented over last 30 days
Number of bans implemented over last 6 months
Number of bans implemented over last year

Number of bans revoked over the last 30 days
Number of bans revoked over the last 6 months
Number of bans revoked over the last year

Number of events hosted over last 30 days
Number of events hosted over last 6 months
Number of events hosted over last year

Average staff turn-over rate last 30 days
Average staff turn-over rate last 6 months
Average staff turn-over rate last year

Some sort of staff availability metric

Publishing these kinds of stats would go a long way in helping communicate what the staff actually does. I think it would at least be helpful in quieting some of the whining and perhaps help migrate specific (and endless) threads to a more empirical discussion.
eph

[Jason]

- calls taken (both ?help and ?cheater) are tracked by a bot
- events hosted are tracked by a bot
- staff turnover and bans are going to be the iffy/tough part

of course, all of the bans are logged in BanG, but i don't believe there's an easy way to sort and search all of the data.

and as far as turnover, it would be sweet if that were tracked in the same way that players are tracked from squad to squad within twd, but i don't think this is implemented at this time. it could be done quite easily, though.

i'm at work now, but i promise you i will follow up on all of this.

[blackrazor]

Good list Ephemeral. I would only add:

Average time between ban and ban revocation. If a ban is resolved in 5 minutes, or times out after 6 months, I want to know.

Also, nothing real is endless. Even the universe is bounded. Although from a human perspective, some things can certainly feel endless. That works both ways.

[Jason]

blackrazor:

1.) i think you're comparing apples to oranges. it's hardly fair to hold the volunteer staff of a decade (and then some) old game (a game which is free to play) to the same standard as a major car manufacturer.

we have very limited resources and we make the best of them.

2.) there is no "constitution of the united states of subspace" which guarantees you any sort of rights. you simply can't expect our banning system to operate like a u.s. court of law whereby all offenders are innocent until proven guilty.

you seem to really care about the game, and i, personally, appreciate that. too many people don't give a shit these days. i think you got out of this sticky situation because of that passion, not because of luck. any other player in your situation, if they were truly innocent and truly cared enough, could achieve the same result with a bit of patience and persistence.

3.) i'm reiterating here, but there is no deficiency to point out. the system worked.

4.) it's just spaceships, dude. chillax and keep having fun. :]

[blackrazor]

blackrazor:

1.) i think you're comparing apples to oranges. it's hardly fair to hold the volunteer staff of a decade (and then some) old game (a game which is free to play) to the same standard as a major car manufacturer.

we have very limited resources and we make the best of them.

2.) there is no "constitution of the united states of subspace" which guarantees you any sort of rights. you simply can't expect our banning system to operate like a u.s. court of law whereby all offenders are innocent until proven guilty.

you seem to really care about the game, and i, personally, appreciate that. too many people don't give a shit these days. i think you got out of this sticky situation because of that passion, not because of luck. any other player in your situation, if they were truly innocent and truly cared enough, could achieve the same result with a bit of patience and persistence.

3.) i'm reiterating here, but there is no deficiency to point out. the system worked.

4.) it's just spaceships, dude. chillax and keep having fun. :]

1. The example was meant to be allegorical in nature. If it helps, great. Otherwise best to drop it, as I don't want to get sidetracked into unrelated issues of volunteerism, corporate culture, organization size, etc.

2. Nowhere in any of my posts did I mention the US constitution, nor US jurisprudence, nor did I ever imply that any of it might be applicable here. I talk about broader concepts, like justice, transparency, community (this is a community run game, not a corporate project). I believe these concepts apply. You are free to disagree, certainly.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is not a US invention, and there are compelling social reasons to have these sorts of policies. This kind of philosophical stuff gets discussed on the terranova blog:

http://terranova.blogs.com

This is where top academics and designers (including Richard Bartle, the founder of the original MUD about 30 years ago) gather and blog about the way gaming and our society interact, and the many fascinating side-effects that result.

You are free to think I got out of this situation because of my passion. What really got me out, however, was one particular staff member vouching for me. That is according to Connection, the one who placed and revoked my ban. Connection was not really interested in my passion. He was following proper protocol, and his data left him quite certain of his results. He is probably used to cheaters trying to smooth-talk their way out of trouble.

But this staff member vouching for me put a new light on things for him, since he also trusted this staff member at least as much as he trusted his data and his investigative prowess. Like I already said, emailing Connection did not earn his trust, I remained banned. If I would not have had staff go to bat for me, I don't know how else I would have convinced Connection, as apparently the logical data involved was rather damning, in his opinion.

So it comes down to luck that I had a staff member willing to do this for me. You could argue that my passion for the game and for helping when I could, is what lead this staffer to have these strong feelings for helping me. But either way, the point is moot; we can't count on this passion (or knowing a staffer well for whatever other reason) to conveniently coincide with being caught under someone else's ban, especially for new, unknown, or unpopular players. To say otherwise is perhaps a form of "well it won't happen to me personally, or my friends, so why worry about it". That's just not the way I think, I guess, I'm sorry.

3. You're entitled to your opinion on that. I don't agree. Hopefully I'm entitled, as well.

4. Hey, we all know the internets is serious business. :P

[Connection]

List of what I think would be helpful staff stats
Number of bans investigated over last 30 days
Number of bans investigated over last 6 months
Number of bans investigated over last year

Number of bans implemented over last 30 days
Number of bans implemented over last 6 months
Number of bans implemented over last year

Number of bans revoked over the last 30 days
Number of bans revoked over the last 6 months
Number of bans revoked over the last year

Publishing these kinds of stats would go a long way in helping communicate what the staff actually does. I think it would at least be helpful in quieting some of the whining and perhaps help migrate specific (and endless) threads to a more empirical discussion.
eph

All those stats are confidential because they contain information that public doesn't need to know. This info can be seen by Bang Op only. I don't see a reason why public needs to see how many bans were took in place in 6 months or so. What comes to how many bans that are took in place gets lifted, i can honestly say it's less than 3% of overall bans and those are usually dealt immediatly. in 1 year only 3 bans has been lifted because of wrongfully banned and all those 3 were complained about.

What comes to the investigation, my job is to check every ban that is took in place. So every ban gets checked always.

[kthx]

I would like to see the amount of bans for racism compared to everything else.

[Connection]

Good list Ephemeral. I would only add:

Average time between ban and ban revocation. If a ban is resolved in 5 minutes, or times out after 6 months, I want to know.
.

There is no hotline where you can call if you think you are banned wrongfully. 1st and most used option: an email where you can send a complaint. 2nd option is to find me in game and talk to me.

[Connection]

I would like to see the amount of bans for racism compared to everything else.

was probably over 50% now it's far more less after i took the bang op job. Teamkill bans are raising.

[Connection]

I had to figure out who to contact. Furthermore, I was rejected in connection's email reply, he simply did NOT believe me. It took me bringing it to staff's attention, and then staff advocating for me (especially one staff member in particular, who really went to bat for me), to sway Connection's opinion.

Also, I'm very lucky staff went to bat for me. As I already stated, if I had been new, or totally unknown to staff, or unliked, then I really have no idea how I would have been able to prove myself to Connection.

Contact info can be found on bantext that splash on your screen when you try to enter. So you can't say either that you didn't know where to contact

Copy of the email i sended you back:

Hello, i was the one that actually banned you do to the reason that i believe you are evading a ban that was issued some time ago to a cheater. There are some minor interesting things i found and that is why i issued this ban for evading earlier one. So at the moment i believe you are the player that i think you are and ban stays. I'll look for this matter again and will get back to you when i have rechecked everything.

- Connection
SSCU Trench Wars
BanG Operator

So you can't say you were ever rejected. I explained my part of the view and told you i will recheck everything. We live in a different timezone so when you are awake, i am in sleep -> which usually adds more hours to the response you are waiting.

Edit:
Time when email came to twbans@gmail.com: 29 August 2010 06:13
Time when i responded to you: 29 August 2010 13:57

in 4am-1pm i was in a sleep

[blackrazor]

I would like to know who decides exactly what the public needs and doesn't need to know, and why. I understand that attitude for corporate projects, since they consider their games to be their intellectual property and run it like a fiefdom. But how does that work for a small community run game, like ours?