What is staff doing when they aren't hosting a game/programming.

[Money]

and vaped

[Twenty Four]

Hi Riverside

The problem with this zone, with guys who are working with the donations, TW Site, etc. is it's a bunch of people who just like to talk. Not a lot of action is ever done. Constant talk of change, TW Site for the past 2 years (seriously, SERIOUSLY?), the project with FF that was supposed to "incorporate everything together", all that crap, and absolutely no results. Biggest example: donations. Cool, you're not "wasting dollars", but why the hell would you ask people for money when you don't have a legitimate plan A, nevermind plan B/C, for money, and raise over $5000? What type of logic is that? If you really think that's okay after all this time, you're just not fit to be handling so much money, and any responsibility with this zone. I understand staff does a lot, I, among others, appreciate that, but seriously, can you blame us? Step the hell up, stop wasting so much time on talking the talk and walk the walk.

You can just say "24" if you want. The situation has already been explained a million times so I'm not going to delve much further into it. Though I'm the "face" of TW Donations, I'm not the sole decision maker of what happens with the money. What we've come across time and time again are people who say they'll do something and then when it comes time to act, dissapear. I went through 13 people who said they could design us a website and all we got was a crappy-subpar website designs (if anything at all) that were no better than what we currently have. We finally had to hire someone to complete the design, and could only do that since we held off spending on random crap and came up with enough money to support that action. Then we get to the part where the design has been completed and we are going to merge into a Joomla template. Ah...more people backing out and not doing what they said they would do. We hire another company to do the merge for us since we don't have any competent people who can actually do it.

You can whine all you want every day...I've said it time and time again, if you're going to complain then you need to back it up with action. If you don't like what I'm doing with the donation funds, then present me with alternative options. Don't say "go on reddit and put ads up".

In fact, let me give you an example. Here's what you (mr. complainsalot) can do. As an example, let's say you're wanting to advertise banner ads on a specific website:

1. Contact the website that you want to advertise on
2. Negotatiate pricing options (banner ads/sizes etc)
3. Writeup a presentable document detailing your plan of action (prices/benefits/etc)
4. Present to upperstaff - If it makes sense, you'll be in charge of making it happen. (We'll pay agreed expenses w/ funds)

Now you can "step up" and take action yourself.

Enjoy your day,

-24

[vaped]

loooool @ chucklefuck

[Jason]

I went through 13 people who said they could design us a website and all we got was a crappy-subpar website designs (if anything at all) that were no better than what we currently have. We finally had to hire someone to complete the design, and could only do that since we held off spending on random crap and came up with enough money to support that action. Then we get to the part where the design has been completed and we are going to merge into a Joomla template. Ah...more people backing out and not doing what they said they would do. We hire another company to do the merge for us since we don't have any competent people who can actually do it.

i'd like to comment on this. the part i've bolded refers to me specifically, and it pisses me off. devs in this game get so utterly fucking shit on it's not even funny.

i'd like to start by saying that i've contributed more than my fair share to this game over the years. i've volunteered just as much as the next guy, so don't tell me i need to back up my words with action. now the reason this comment pisses me off is because you're throwing people under the bus, and it's bullshit. you call people incompetent, yet you have no comparable competencies when it comes to this sort of development work. you say that people are backing out and not saying they would do what they said they would do. let me paint a more accurate picture as to how an assignment is typically delegated amongst tw staff.

upper staffer> hey you've helped us with web dev stuff in the past, wanna do <this> and <that>?
jason> i might be able to help a bit, but i'm pretty busy so i can't guarantee any specific deadlines
upper staffer> great so you'll do it!

now bear in mind that the specifics of <this> and <that> are never spelled out in enough detail. in virtually every project in which i've ever been involved, communication as to expectations, what is to be done, how is it to be done, and when is to be done by, none of this is ever adequately discussed and communicated. there's simply no organization.

with respect to this specific situation, i actually have had a very busy (and rough) time of it in my real life. i prioritized and took care of myself and my family, as absolutely any normal human being would do. i did not have the presence of mind to first stop in and let a spaceship game staff member know about my situation. i didn't have the time to do so, and frankly, who is ever going to think of spaceships first when shit's hitting the fan?

so without knowing the true nature of the situation, you make this post to save face. you pass blame along onto others. and to add insult to injury, you complain that you must now spend a few measly hundred of the thousands of dollars in donation money to hire a company to do the work for you. where was this offer of money when i was asked to do the work? you'd pay a stranger who has no ties to this community and then bitch about it, yet you wouldn't think to offer compensation to a long-standing member of the community? to a colleague? i need to make it very clear, i don't care about the money. it's the principle of the thing. you get all impatient and act as if it's no big deal for all this major development to just get "taken care of" and not once do you ever concede that the type of work you're asking for is of a level that requires a certain degree of professional experience and expertise. you simply expect for people to spend countless hours of their free time to get it done and make you look good in the process.

furthermore, any dev (and i truly mean pretty much any person who's spent any of their time to develop maps/tilesets/events/bots/websites/etc) will tell you they've become disheartened at some point or another. the sad fact is, this community is so full of undeserving, sniveling little bitches it's not even funny. is a little gratitude on occasion too much to ask? hell, i think most would even settle for simply not having to hear the constant whining. the community doesn't need to hand out pats on the back, but it sure as hell could stuff all the pissing and moaning straight up its collective ass.

so you come to people who have already paid their dues. people who have given as much (if not more) than they've taken from this game. you expect these people to continue to develop for an absolutely ungrateful and dying population. and then the second they don't deliver you call them out?

how dare you point the finger at anyone else? how fucking dare you?

[Ilya]

in response to the thread title,

[Twenty Four]

Piss off Jason. Don't get your feelings hurt; if you say you're going to do something then do it or let someone know you can't so we can take alternative action. I didn't make you look bad in any way and didn't mention names.

http://forums.trenchwars.net/showthr...l=1#post826370

-24

[zih]

why cant idiot staff talk to each other like a group and speak their mind. Dont be a bitch if you dont want to do it say so and make it clear. Also not everyone needs to hear your emo life on tw forums.

it seems like the 1st time a staffer gets told "that is wrong" or "that is not how you do it" they start turning 6 years old and having a pissy fit.

Imo being a staff member is not worth it if you cant be yourself with others
hope you get what im trying to say not going to write a book over something this obvious

[Riverside]

I think you've spent more time encouraging people to do YOUR work that YOU committed to, and that YOU'RE supposed to be capable in doing than actually doing the work yourself. If this was my area of expertise, you can bet I would be a lot more "whinesalot" about it. It wasn't a personal shot at you initially, don't know why you made it so. A year and a half of stalling something, without giving too much information at first, and you expect people to come save the day now :P? I'm sorry, but that attitude is part of the problem here. All I'm saying is, you keep encouraging people to step up, my suggestion is for you to do the same.

[soup]

Okay, I told myself I wasn't going to engage in this pile of rubbish, but I can't sit silently as certain values, incentives and general traditions of an institution I have had long time respect for get trashed and/or completely ignored/forgotten.

First off, the initial premise (or question) was A) why are staff useless, and B) what are they doing when they're not hosting/programming. Hosting... and programming... really? The ERs are the only ones on staff required to host events. When anyone else hosts it simply makes them better people but it definitely does not say anything more about those who do not. There are about 50 active (semi-active, whatever) staff members and about 5 of them actually do any programming at all. Hosting is important, but if you think this game would exist, or even be remembered, right now, without continuous programming support, you are being so ignorant it goes beyond absurd.

Staff's primary reason for existing at all is to keep the game safe (e.g. from cheaters) and maintain it's technical viability. Hosting is no where near as important as the aforementioned, and therefore I take offense to the very premise of this troll of a post.

Second... the people who volunteer their time to staff the game ARE VOLUNTEERS. I don't think 99% of the community have any grasp as to how much time and energy is actually put into the programming of all the shit being taken for granted in the zone. Why should everyone on staff be required to host? Time spent is still time spent so if we are banning cheaters, helping new players, organizing leagues, organizing events, managing people (etc..) then why should that be all for not if we aren't hosting on top of it?

Sure, I'll be the first to say that we need more hosting and that hosting is very important for the welfare of the zone, but it's only a grain of sand compared to all the other things equally or more important.

As a member of upper staff, it pains me to read things like that, ph, and if I had been around then I can assure you I would have done something. I wish that we were able to take every single cheater/help call and deal with them admirably, but, unfortunately, sometimes staff allow themselves to sink to the level of normal players for a while and just talk or play. We can't force people to drop anything and everything for every single cheater call.

I didn't read your post but

1. We still got cheaters after the 0.40 update?
2. People who use racism=easy to ban
3. Cool koen used to host a lot and he did very important things for staff
4. Why spend time online/in tw and not host, you're obviously here, just entertain people


Imho I can't see that much going on in staff besides organizing important things like TWL and let Dev do programming. You know I just posted hosting/programming because I have barely any idea what there is left to do...

Maybe some people should stay <ER> forever, no need for them to become Mod/SMods/... do other """important""" things.

[Chao.]

We hire another company to do the merge for us since we don't have any competent people who can actually do it.

I'm at a loss as to how insinuating that no one in the community is competent enough to help out with the projects we need to have done is going to help in any way, shape, or form with the issues we're faced with. There are a lot of people I've gotten to know personally in this game inside staff and out of it, and coming out and saying shit like that is frankly not cool with me. Are you serious right now?

[Twenty Four]

I'm not going to get in a pissing match with you Riverside. It's much more effective for me to manage several people doing a little bit of work each than for me to attempt to do all the work myself. In fact, that was part of the problem. Originally I was doing EVERYTHING myself - Which is really a horrible way of doing things. I've just recently started delegating authority and allowing people to take ownership of their own ideas and go forward with them. If you have an idea that you would like to present, why not take the extra step to make it a reality? That's all I'm trying to say.

-24

[LF]

There is a whole lot of deflecting going on in this thread. Who would have thought a thread created by Soupero, an upstanding member of this community, would have caused such a debate? I don't even know what I'm allowed to say given my current standing in the game as a regular player, and given my knowledge from time in upper staff but we really need to see less delegating, and more confidence and decision making. 24, at no point did you ever handle this project solo, but if you keep "delegating" and blaming others for their shortcomings nobody is going to get the blame except you. If people are letting you down, take some initiative and get shit done yourself. If I knew half a fuck about marketing/advertising I would have contributed more, but if you know as little as I do you never should have taken that spot to begin with. However since you are the "go to" guy, start getting shit done or pass it on to someone who will. I'd even take over from a non staff perspective if I had to and I could guarantee results in less than a month with the resources you have.

Also, turb why would you think I would throw people under the bus and give names? I haven't thus far, but I'm still convinced staff is lost in its current state without me. Everyone knows by this point I think Dezmond is a faggot, he's just a faggot that knows bots, so he's untouchable so wingzero doesnt have to work alone.

[Twenty Four]

All we can do is move forward now. Everyone will have a difference of opinion on what should and should not be done. I'll continue to use my best judgement in the things I do here.

I didn't mean delegating in a negative way. I don't think it means what you think it means. I'm saying that if players have the ability to contribute and wish to do so, they can now do that. I've suggested methods (other players have as well) on what can be done. We won't be doing any large advertising until the new website is designed; I've said that from the start and I stand behind that decision to this day.

Anyhow, good day,

-24

[Supreme]

[soup]

There is a whole lot of deflecting going on in this thread. Who would have thought a thread created by Soupero, an upstanding member of this community, would have caused such a debate?

Thank you, previously I have adressed the "24-money" thing as well. I don't get a lot of credit for all of this. :'(

tyty