Changes in Pub

[mtine]

To make u wzl lovers go away, here's a pro solution:

1. Change the wzl back to the small form
2. Make it keep cloak + stealth
3. Remove all the holes that lead into FR

GG.

[Rab]

Eph is right

[Emaho]

I just wanted to say thanks for making pub playable again! No more LTs ruining everything.

The weasle could use a tweak (now its just original settings and we moved away from that because the ship sucked with those settings) but I'll leave that to you guys!


Again: Thanks!

ema

[Shaddowknight]

I think the ultimate goal would be to make both ships balanced enough to be playable in Base/TwBD and ultimately TWLB

Why arent they allowed with tjeir previous settings? Easy, they are unfair for basing. Fix this and let all ships be used in our basing leagues.

[Left_Eye]

The current levi (although made less defenseless) has been a part of TW for over a decade (even when TW was popular). What has really made TW lose population is the fact that it is a 2D game trying to compete in a 3D world (at least when it comes to respective gaming). The thing that makes people stick around, or even continue coming back, is the population itself, not the game playing (that is just a byproduct). The community is what has made this game last so long.

As Eph said in another post, I agree that the current levis should be permissible to play on public freqs, as they can still be helpful in breaking up and taking control of a flagroom. Levis (as powerful as they are) should be heavily dependent on help rather than making them more mobile in their current state. If they are to be made into basing ships, then they really need to be nerfed down dramatically to the level of other ships. As someone mentioned, I believe AceHacker, the objective for basing is that all basing ships were meant to be used together as a "rock paper scissors" mentality. Each ship has their weaknesses and strengths that matches other ships levels. That's why I originally suggested the levi be limited in duration or ability to play rather than messing with the settings itself, if the intention is to stop LTs from taking over as much as they have. Even if levis are only permitted on freq 0 or 1, that would change things dramatically because they would still have to be part of a team effort to kill enemies (whether in flagroom or base itself). If they continue to substantially disregard the killing of own teammates, staff can step in and warn/ban them from ships. Also, as I suggested, levis could be permitted to not enter safety anymore, even on freq 0 or 1. That would leave them open to attack at all times. I mean if they happen to enter safety, the bot can change their ship or warp them to spawn (if not attached to a terr).

[Shaddowknight]

Another fix for the weasel... return it's old settings, just tweaked slightly

The following from a server.set from dev zone while we still had one. (just a .cfg basically with descriptions on what the settings actually do)
"Radius:0:::The ship's radius from center to outside, in pixels. Standard value is 14 pixels."

So, I'd guess that 7 pixels was what the Weasel had. Make it 8 or 9, so it's still small, but not able to fit in the flagroom holes. It won't be as easy to hit as it is now, just slightly easier than before.

Just another option to put on the table, not saying it's best.



As I said before, making both levi and weasel balanced enough to be played in ?go base and twd/twl would be optimal. Give a greater sense of similarity between those arenas/leagues and pub (we lost a lot of similarity to pub when the map in pub0 was altered to be something other than that of ?go base/twd, no longer can pubbers get actual practice with angles and camping spots in pub).

[Supreme]

As Eph said in another post, I agree that the current levis should be permissible to play on public freqs, as they can still be helpful in breaking up and taking control of a flagroom. Levis (as powerful as they are) should be heavily dependent on help rather than making them more mobile in their current state. If they are to be made into basing ships, then they really need to be nerfed down dramatically to the level of other ships. As someone mentioned, I believe AceHacker, the objective for basing is that all basing ships were meant to be used together as a "rock paper scissors" mentality. Each ship has their weaknesses and strengths that matches other ships levels. That's why I originally suggested the levi be limited in duration or ability to play rather than messing with the settings itself, if the intention is to stop LTs from taking over as much as they have. Even if levis are only permitted on freq 0 or 1, that would change things dramatically because they would still have to be part of a team effort to kill enemies (whether in flagroom or base itself). If they continue to substantially disregard the killing of own teammates, staff can step in and warn/ban them from ships. Also, as I suggested, levis could be permitted to not enter safety anymore, even on freq 0 or 1. That would leave them open to attack at all times. I mean if they happen to enter safety, the bot can change their ship or warp them to spawn (if not attached to a terr).

The solution is easy when you think about it. Theres still a antitk-bot in pub right? Allow them only on pubfreqs. Boom, limited play and less powerful in one shot.

[AceHac]{er]

I’m not sure who you are or how long you have been playing but you are nowhere near correct in most of your statements. Here is the TW objective taken straight from the TW web site (Moot asked for my input when he published this so I am fairly familiar with my own words).

I beta tested subspace on a 56K modem. When they switched to selling it I was gone 5 years until I found Continuum. Played off and on since. So yeah, a long time.

“Mission Statement - The ultimate goal of Trench Wars is the development and maintenance of an online community that fosters teamwork and camaraderie among its members.”

“Main Objectives - To maintain the game play focus of this zone; Basing, and to promote it to newer players and establish it within the community (Publics), while not neglecting other aspects of Trench Wars, such as the dueling aspect of Trench Wars.”

So explain how LTs, kill-a-thons, and pub bucks has anything to do with teamwork, basing or capturing the flag. Additionally I have never advocated getting rid of ships 4 or 6, or even changing their current settings. In fact the only change that I advocated was to remove private frequency LT. If a team can use a LT to ‘loosen’ a flag room so it can be taken then go for it.

In my post I was saying Levs and Weasels were always a part of the game because to me your post sounds like they have always been outside the TW purpose and I say they are not, now it sounds like you may agree there, which is good. I was simply explaining how they ARE used "to take flag room" and to "support team play" to take or defend FR.

Now you throw in private freqs ... well a private freq can be a team. BTW, an LT with support is definitely "a team"; successful LTs work together quite well with an objective to protect the Lev so he can rack up kills. An LT with 500 or 1000 bty Lev, now that IS teamwork! Much more teamwork than a wb or a jav that sits on the roof and picks people off (often on their own private freq so no attempt to base there either) but that's alright. It's also OK for sharks to mine the lower and mid with no attempt to base; that's alright. So IMO these activities would be the "other aspects of Trench Wars" and an LT is no worse for the game objective than these other cases I mention. So there is basing and there is teamwork and sometimes there is both other times neither but that is not a requirement to enjoy pub.

And of course there has been changes to the ships, settings and maps. Are you really trying to argue that ‘it always been done so therefore it must be correct’? I recommend that before you post you actual think through your post and verify that you have your facts straight.
eph

I thought about my post. If you read it ... I agreed with you about the kill-o-thons not being part of basing. The private duels aren't really part of basing either but apparently they are part of the "main objective" so fine leave that. I made no mention of pubbux, that was all you so don't put words in my mouth one way or the other.

As for the "there have always been changes", my point is that it is not correct that the changes always seem to be directed towards the X and levi. Changes to the map periodically to keep things interesting is a good thing but constantly messing with ship settings isn't. So I'm saying Weasels and Levis belong in the game and it is annoying that their settings are always the ones that get FUBARed annually.


General statement here, not specifically a reply to Eph ... If you don't like LTs bombing the roof then post some of your wbs or weasels up there to defend it. If an LT is doing too much damage get your own turret with an antied spider and hunt them down ... but no that would take teamwork, better to whine they are too powerful.

It seems some people want a castle with only one castle gate to defend. Strategies change and today paratroopers and bomber planes exist. Flag games obviously end eventually, so tiny weasels and LTs apparently haven't made basing impossible - just put them back the way they were.

[Vehicle]

Make it's stealth drain a decent amount of energy instead of it's cloak. Then buff it's speed, manoeuvrability and recharge rate.
This way it can't really be effective fully cloaked but it forces players to monitor radar. Also, you wouldn't be able to just ram a weasel to kill it after it fired because of the faster recharge and cheaper single bullet cost.

Or if you really want to get wild make cloak drain a decent amount of energy, take away it's rocket, give it slow red bullets, and give it a single L2 EMP Mine. And maybe a rep. (I get that that's a weird idea but just saying would be cool.)

[Vehicle]

I’m not sure who you are or how long you have been playing but you are nowhere near correct in most of your statements. Here is the TW objective taken straight from the TW web site (Moot asked for my input when he published this so I am fairly familiar with my own words).

“Mission Statement - The ultimate goal of Trench Wars is the development and maintenance of an online community that fosters teamwork and camaraderie among its members.”

“Main Objectives - To maintain the game play focus of this zone; Basing, and to promote it to newer players and establish it within the community (Publics), while not neglecting other aspects of Trench Wars, such as the dueling aspect of Trench Wars.”

Quoting yourself to justify your own opinions? Cool. I think part of the reason this game has survived is precisely because the 'objectives' are different for everyone, and different to the same people at different times. I'm not trying to start an argument here but I really don't think it's cool for people to go around defining what the game is for other people.

[Ephemeral]

Quoting yourself to justify your own opinions? Cool. I think part of the reason this game has survived is precisely because the 'objectives' are different for everyone, and different to the same people at different times. I'm not trying to start an argument here but I really don't think it's cool for people to go around defining what the game is for other people.

You are right, what I think the objectives are is not important. What is important is that there are objectives and a mission statement. Objectives can be changed at any time; if folks want a different objective for the game then decide what it is, communicate it to everyone, and then set off down that road.

I think that the entire game can indeed support players who have different reasons for playing. But as I said I think that Pub 0 is the ‘cover to the TW book’; the contents of this book can be enjoyed for whatever reasons. No one is telling people what they should enjoy about TW, that is not what objectives do. But players, especially new or potentially new players, are judging this book by its cover. If we don’t keep the cover to this book attractive to new players than sales for the book will drop off.

And on the back cover of this book we list the objectives to the game. It is a simple summary of what this book is about and allows players to quickly understand the intent of the game at a glance. Just as important, it powerfully communicates the purpose of the game as a motivational direction for all decisions. It is supposed to be used to measure the success or failure of the various operational decisions that are made over time.

But to say that just because I contributed to the wording of the current objective I am running around defining the game for other people is not right. The point I have been trying to make (for many years) is that we have been trying to make the front cover to this book ‘be all things to all people’. Pub 0 cannot be this, especially when considering ship settings. If you stuff 15 more ‘sub-arenas’ into the Pub 0 map the ships still have the same settings; and the settings for hockey aren’t good for the settings for general pub play. What we have now is a cover to this book which is crammed with so much stuff that people pick the book up, take a quick look at the cover, put the book back on the shelf, and then walk out the door without reading the book. The cover is now jumbled and over-whelming to those who pick it up to take a look yet for the last few years the direction has been to keep adding more and more stuff.

Here is why I think the cover (Pub 0) should be changed;

• The best designs are those that have nothing left to remove, not when there is nothing more to add. There are many examples of good things being ruined by people trying to stuff in ‘features’ that are not part of the original intent. Does a browser really need to be a address book too? Does a operating system really need to have a solitaire game to be good?
• Dance with the one who bought you. If we had a historically proven Pub 0, one where new players joined and stayed, why the constant addition of features over time?
• Pub 0 should not be used as a test bed for new features. I can think of no legitimate reason to experiment with the ‘flagship’ of a product. Pub 0 should be stable and consistent. Of course something might change over time but these should be rolled out in other arenas, tested thoroughly, measured against the objectives, and only them rolled our into Pub 0. But rolling out new features to Pub 0 and then relying upon casual observation to justify the changes? That is like changing the popcorn in a theater and then asking how people in the theater how they like it.

So I am not telling people what to take away from the game, that is not what I have been saying at all.
eph

[Left_Eye]

Here is why I think the cover (Pub 0) should be changed;

• The best designs are those that have nothing left to remove, not when there is nothing more to add. There are many examples of good things being ruined by people trying to stuff in ‘features’ that are not part of the original intent. Does a browser really need to be a address book too? Does a operating system really need to have a solitaire game to be good?
• Dance with the one who bought you. If we had a historically proven Pub 0, one where new players joined and stayed, why the constant addition of features over time?
• Pub 0 should not be used as a test bed for new features. I can think of no legitimate reason to experiment with the ‘flagship’ of a product. Pub 0 should be stable and consistent. Of course something might change over time but these should be rolled out in other arenas, tested thoroughly, measured against the objectives, and only them rolled our into Pub 0. But rolling out new features to Pub 0 and then relying upon casual observation to justify the changes? That is like changing the popcorn in a theater and then asking how people in the theater how they like it.

I couldn't agree with this more.

[usoi]

Regarding the wzl, I really like the old settings long time ago. You don't lose energy continuously for having stealth and cloak on and it starts with a x radar. no rep or rocket. It was perfect for stealing flag because it was small. Of course you'd have to be skilled enough to avoid the terrs and other wzl (x radar). I think the timer resets once an enemy ship touches it but now it has to be held for a few seconds iirc.

As for levs, I pretty much stopped basing in pub when pure pub was gone.
The new levs kinda remind me of nightwasps a little.

[midoent]

I think the lev bomb should be small enough to effectively rep. Right now the explosion radius is still too big.

[AceHac]{er]

You make all the changes making the lev and weasels weak pieces of ship and still you can't give them the same use of !buy that other ships have - either make all ships !buy fair or take it out completely. Let weasels buy repels and let levs buy in open space (or make ALL ships buy in safe).