BanID #2819 - requesting answer from M_M God

[Vys]

Give him a last chance and 2pac be nice when talking with them.

[M_M God]

Alright, just to clarify some things concerning/surrounding this particular ban: 2pacz was banned in 2008 for a year because he cheated in Desert Storm; simple enough, ban was over, he continued to play in TW. Then in august 2013, he was caught in Star fox' event cheating AGAIN; because it was his second netban/offense, another year ban followed. This was approved/set by the SSC Netops, Left_Eye has nothing to do with this. The local ban was matched with this netban in terms of days he is banned, thus, normally, he would be unbanned in august 2014, when his ban is over. Anyhow, during this current netban he is serving he decided it was wise to evade his current netban TWICE, we banned him on his other (evading) names again and did NOT add any time to his current netban. Now, he's asking for leniency, while during his ban he already managed to evade twice, has shown no respect/only anger towards staff for something he has done wrong (especially on forums) and tries to get support from his friends while they don't have full knowledge of his ban history, nor how he has disrespected us so far. Despite all of this, after he left me a ?message (we're even nice enough to allow him into EG right now so he can actually TALK to us), I talked to him online, and told him that the first step would need to be to stop being such a hater, show some respect to everyone and behave on the forums. This kind of behaviour will not help you; it will only put our guard up even more. We're not bad guys here on staff, we try to show support for your case/how you might feel and are actually willing to listen to your side of the story here. However we can't ignore the facts, nor the history/your recent behaviour on forums, towards other players and towards staff recently, so that's something we have to take all into account. I also already told 2pacz that if we would be lenient, which might very well be the case (looking at past cases of CE/cheaters), that this would be his LAST CHANCE. I will be discussing this case with my banG Head Op and with Demonic (co TW Net Op) and then we will decide if we will allow you to return to TW before your original ban time has been served. Also, Exalt, I find it funny that you seem to keep having different opinions about this whole Paradise/Sheriff case; I remember you saying you could understand why they weren't banned for this, why Paradise could continue to be staff (be it in a limited way) and now you're trying to use this SEPARATE case to start discussions about that Paradise/Sheriff case again. Just FYI, that bug they 'had been exploiting for months' was only around for a week or so until we found out (the fruit bet) so please ask for more information first before you decide to keep changing your story/opinion concerning them.

[Shaddowknight]

If it's important enough to let others know anything else he had done, it should be by the BanG Ops (or with their permission). Simply put, It's not my place to disclose that information just because I have access to it.

Abusing a bug is not the same as hacking/cheating. As is fairly commonplace, people in positions of power (staff) are often given less harsh punishments, but not completely left off the hook (it's VERY common unfortunately). As for why none of them were banned? It was not cheating or hacking. It was exploitation of a bug. There was a loophole, and people used it. Their punishments were more fit to that than cheating/hacking. To again make an analogy to US law, it's the difference between manslaughter and second or first degree murder. While not a great analogy, the punishments for each are quite different, as the situation for each is different.
IMO Sheriff SHOULD be banned for everything he has done, but I think I also know why he wasn't. I will not speak on that though. If he/the deans want to explain, they may. (I wouldn't expect them to, nor do I think they should need to.)

Now, to 2pac: we were using US law as an ANALOGY, to make it easier to understand, as something a number of our players can relate to. What happened is that you served a time, then thought that you should be free, so you broke yourself out of jail, with the phrase "My ban should be up and I should be free." waving behind you on a banner. What you forget is you still "broke out of jail" and got caught. IF your ban was truely served, then it's at the mercy of the BanG Ops to forgive you for breaking out of jail, and it should be up to them if they decide you deserve your netban reduced/removed as well.


Now I would like to say I am NOT speaking for the BanG Ops or anyone else on staff or off staff. These are just my opinions and thoughts given the information I have on my own.

[Exalt]

If it were JUST about the cheating/hacking thing, I would agree. Star Fox, to continue to use the US law as a means of comparison. If you try to escape from jail, and get caught, do they not extend your sentence, how about for REPEATED escapes and escape attempts?

On top of that there were other things that I am not able to discuss that I notice listed in bancomments. I don't blame you all for thinking based on the information you have, but you do not have the whole picture either. If they decide to lift his ban and let him in then so be it, I don't really care either way. I would not expect that to happen though.

Shadow... I respect you as a staffer... and so I respect at least SOME of the transparency you just showed in WHY staff seem to be unmovable on this subject...

But is there any specific reason why you cannot disclose some of the ban comments that basically lead you and more specifically, dezmond/lefty from lifting his ban? Trenchwars has a history of lifting bans early for cheaters, such as Vys/Ivf who was once lifebanned, and is clearly not still lifebanned. Staff in the past have shown the ability to be lenient, so why is this such a big deal here that staff cannot due so now?

Are there security reasons for why we, the general public, are refused to be told these "secrets" in his ban comments? Why are we keeping secrets from the public anyway? What is gained by this form of thinking? Seriously, how is this productive in gaining trust and respect towards staff? This IS a dying game, and as far as I've seen, staff have acknowledged that fact enough to allow more transparency and open discussions with the regular non-staff players because of it. Staff are finally opening up and allowing players to gain a lil bit of power back, due to this game being ALL OF OURS. It is NOT just staff's, and let's be real here and ADMIT that NOT ALL STAFF should actually BE staff, and NOT ALL STAFF have made great decisions either in hiring staff members, promoting certain staff members, or even generally been mistake-free themselves as GOOD staff members. EVERYONE makes mistakes. The reason staff are so hated is because the perception is largely that staff refuse to ADMIT making mistakes. They act like they are ABOVE the regular player, and that is simply not true in any regards beyond some chip on the shoulder of certain staff members. Let us also agree that the hiring requirements and hiring process of staff has been fucked up for years, which is why Demonic and co have basically decided the entire structure of staff needs to be shaken up. A lot of players have personally stated that EVERYONE should be fired and everything should be started from scratch. This is impossible due to logistical reasons, and also because it would be bad due to there truly being at least a few GOOD members of staff, you included. That being said, there are a lot of BAD staff members, and staff generally have been let off the hook with every fucking offense, and that is also a double standard I for one dislike.

For instance... Paradise cheated blantantly inside of Trenchwars. Why is he not netbanned for 90 days? Cheating and abusing a bug in the system is generally under the SAME rule in trenchwars, so why was Paradise not only NOT axed from staff, but why is he not banned for 90 days (since this was his FIRST offense?)

Also, why was Sheriff NOT banned for a year, considering he has had multiple offenses?

Get my point here? You guys ban regular players like 2pac while ignoring the offenses of players like Paradise, simply because one seems to be generally abrasive and disliked as a person and he isn't/wasn't staff, while a player like Paradise/Sheriff both simply get a suspension from staff (and sheriff was axed), while receiving no actual BANS due to their blatant cheating.

How was anything different? One was using CE, while another was abusing a bug in the system for months that gave them unlimited amounts of pubbux.

Was pee pee sock banned btw? He wasn't staff. He also cheated.

See my point here? I don't like double standards. I don't like hypocrisy. I don't like that a lot of staff members are simply unable and unqualified for their positions. I also don't like that a staff member makes a mistake, yet we ignore that fact and we punish the PLAYER instead of the staff member. That is morally WRONG to me. Do you not agree with this at least on SOME level?

Beyond that, what exactly is the reason you cannot disclose this "inside" information that you give as reasons why you cannot be lenient with 2pac in his ban situation? I am NOT defending 2pac as a player for what he did to earn that ban, nor what he didn't do to possible get staff to take his side in alleviating the harshness of that ban. I am simply debating where he justice is in this extending of the original ban when the JUDGE who sentenced him had given a 3 month sentence. After that 3 month sentence was fulfilled, that JUDGE decided to give ANOTHER sentence (yes, american judicial system) in double-jeopardy. I would try to escape from jail too after that illegal form of punishment. So to use that excuse of ESCAPING jail is ridiculous Shadow.

So for real... what is the reason we are not allowed to know his bancomments? Why are we not allowed to know this inside information? You can't really claim security concerns, so what is the real reason? Give me a real reason for things like this, and perhaps I wouldn't actually be debating this stuff with you. You even agree that you understand why we all disagree with this ban based on the information we do know. If there is other information that leads you to believe this ban-extension is actually justified, beyond the fact that Lefty screwed up the first time (which wasn't 2pac's fault at all), tell us what that information is. Otherwise, I could simply say you are lying to protect Lefty. I fail to see why you cannot disclose this information in lieu of transparency

[Mythril]

I don’t know anyone who has ever actually relied on CE or any other cheat program to be good at this game. Most of the people who cheated in the past did it to get a rise out of other people or just to have fun and go against the rules during an elim, dd or just pubbing. When viewed from that intention, how is using a speedhack or flying through walls or whatever the hell you’re doing different from TKing in pub or spamming racism? It’s not like he was in the TWLD finals and started going through rocks and prizing himself super. He was in Gatez 2 with 5 people playing.

Cheating on subspace isn’t the same as cheating in sports where steroids and PEDs have a lasting impact on a player’s performance. How does 2pac using speedhack for shits and giggles in Desert Storm affect anything about his skill level in DDs or wbduels? I’ve never been under the impression that he had an unfair advantage from playing against him.

The guy got caught using CE in a TW event and got banned for 9 months.. How does that warrant anything more than a 2 week ban? Star Fox nailed it on the head when he said we need to start accounting for circumstance when coming up with reasonable punishments. Even the staffer who was hosting the event said he felt like 2pac's actions were harmless for the most part. Unban 2pac and give him 5 million pub bux and grant him infinite shields the next time he plays Gatez 2 for the inconvenience.

[PapaRaazi]

Staff is so stubborn they can't just admit they are wrong, they have to continue posting useless, irrelevant arguments which just manage to make them look more and more retarded. shaddowknight and roxxkatt both have the mentality of 5 year olds. Remove them both from the game because they are making a bad name for staff. If you "good" staffers are wondering why you get shit on all the time, it's because of people like this.

Free 2pac

Axe shadowfaggot
Axe roxxnewbie

PS) ph is a nerdy hipster weirdo with serious issues

[roxxkatt]

Explain to me why we let Mythril, Delectable, Vys, etc (I honestly forgot half the players at this point) off the hook from their LIFEBANS (due to cheating inside TW multiple times) and only served a few months to a year at most? Explain to me why we can let one group of players off the hook (they had a large community support group, me included) but cannot let 2pac off, when he clearly states he won't cheat anymore? Is it because we don't like the player, or because we are following some unwritten rule? Pick one or the other, but not both.

so if the good ol boys club lets 3 faggots who murdered people out of jail, we should let more murderers off too?

• You cheated in SSCU Trench Wars and, as a result, were banned in August of 2013. This netban was originally for 90 days, however after L_E found out this was your second netban offence for cheating, it was increased appropriately.

and this is why we shouldnt be stupid enough to cheat, kids


its too bad he didnt cheat in tw both times so we can up it to a lifeban

[2pac]

good point starfox. I just pity staff like shaddowknight who continue to fight and won't be the better person. Unjust, unfair I explained it in detail and you yet to see faults in Left_Eye who failed at her position as BanG Op.

It's not just US LAW its plain and simple I over-served my ban PERIOD. Whoever didn't ban me properly should be treated with loss of their staff position or suspension as it outline in SSC Netops site.

Thank you

[Shaddowknight]

If it were JUST about the cheating/hacking thing, I would agree. Star Fox, to continue to use the US law as a means of comparison. If you try to escape from jail, and get caught, do they not extend your sentence, how about for REPEATED escapes and escape attempts?

On top of that there were other things that I am not able to discuss that I notice listed in bancomments. I don't blame you all for thinking based on the information you have, but you do not have the whole picture either. If they decide to lift his ban and let him in then so be it, I don't really care either way. I would not expect that to happen though.

[Vys]

Star fox has basically nailed it.

[Star Fox]

Hiya,

I was hosting gatez2 at the time this happened, and was the one who reported it to LE. I'd like to just put in my 2 cents.

Let's look at some facts the way I understand them, and feel free to correct me if and where I'm wrong:

-2pacZ was a staffer in Desert Storm and was banned in 2008 for cheating. This ban seems to have been for a year, not 90 days, which was served fully, and then there were no offense for 4-5 years. I don't know the details of this offense (how disruptive was it, etc).
-On Aug. 17, 2013, 2pacZ was playing ?go gatez2 with less than 10 people in the arena, and only 5-6 of those playing. The event was over (however he may have been cheating during the event as well). Some may say the circumstances may not be important, but I do not agree with this. Context is always important. That's why there are different degrees of murder in criminal law. In this circumstance, I found his actions pretty harmless. He wasn't bothering anyone. IIRC, he blatantly let himself get shot over and over while sitting completely still, so I informed L_E, and we verified it. 5 minutes later, he was banned, and I went back to business.
-Apparently, the initial ban was a 90 day netban, and a 1 year local ban. This sentence was served, and then it was extended after evidence was reviewed after the ban had already been served. I know this isn't the United States' justice system, but you'll just have to deal with my analogies anyway. In criminal law I'm pretty sure that after a sentence is handed down, you don't get to extend it later when more evidence comes to light. If post-verdict changes are how bans function, then the current ban should also be reviewed on the grounds that 2pacZ over-served on his original ban for cheating in Desert Storm, but it seems like everyone on staff (other than possibly Dezmond) is fairly closed to review.

From Dezmond's post, it sounds like the netban can't be lifted regardless unless someone can get in touch with SSC ops, so 2pacz might be screwed regardless, but my opinion in this scenario would be to let the guy play. Some people have made a good point that the game is dying, and 2pacz is a pretty active player and we need all we can get.

It's been 6 months, and his attitude is obviously a little different now. He certainly doesn't always have nice things to say about staff, or even other players...but I don't think that should be a factor in this decision. Let's take this chance to show him that staff aren't a bunch of spiteful jerks itching to drop the ban hammer on people they don't like while issuing pardons to those they favor.

[2pac]

As far as the netban from DS, being that it was a SSC NET BAN, and the SSC still exists, that ban is still valid. Consider the SSC as a country, and individual zones as states/provinces. Braking a state/provincial law will stick around while you're there, but won't carry over to others generally. Break a national law and it's with you no matter where in the nation you go. Just sucks for you that there's only one "country" to be in.

Shaddowknight you don't seem to understand my 1st ban was for 1 year, my ban should have been originally be 3 months since it was my 1st offence I served 9 months extra. I'm getting fucked over here bro.

Then left_eye finds this out which she failed at her job to find it out its her job to know these things, then bans me again on the date 3 months after aug 17th which would be November 17th - On that date left_eye modifies the netban till aug 17th of 2014. It's her fault for not finding out the *info on my ban previously, that is her job and should have found that out. You can just change a ban when its about to be over. Finding more out my past troubles should have been done when I had cheated on the day the netban was set. She obviously failed at that.

I'm not trying to VS staff but I'm outlining that I have been over-banned by many months.

Also if your figuring out why I'm making this topic now its been 9 MONTHS of ban I have served already and should be unbanned already. Feb 17th today.

[Exalt]

2pac,
I am not sure what you mean by ‘not being around’. I have played this zone, without interruption, since 1998. I would say that I am more active, in terms of playing, then the vast majority of players.

In my book ANY exploit is fucking the community over. It isn’t only the handful of player who might have been online in some arena or at the particular time. I’ve played this zone for 16 years and have never been banned, have many friends, and have had very few run in with any staffers.

Staff is simply a subset of the rest of the player community. Are there or have there been assholes on staff? Sure; same as there are plenty of assholes in the player population. I am trying to help you here, like I said IMO you have gone about getting the ban lifted, and generating public support, all wrong.

I don’t kiss anyone’s ass on staff, but I have some influence. So even though I have definitely pissed some of them off and even burned a few bridges, I still have a fair amount of support. You can reject my advice if you want, and blow me off as someone who doesn’t matter. Fuck, even if you don’t buy into anything I’ve said I would think that by this time you have seen that your approach has not worked for you and would be considering a radical different approach.
eph

Explain to me why we let Mythril, Delectable, Vys, etc (I honestly forgot half the players at this point) off the hook from their LIFEBANS (due to cheating inside TW multiple times) and only served a few months to a year at most? Explain to me why we can let one group of players off the hook (they had a large community support group, me included) but cannot let 2pac off, when he clearly states he won't cheat anymore? Is it because we don't like the player, or because we are following some unwritten rule? Pick one or the other, but not both.

If it's due to the player, i disagree on principle.

If it's due to the rules, i disagree based on cruel/unusual punishment, double jeopardy, and Left_Eye's fuck up to begin with by not checking 2pac's previous bans during the first 3 months. This was Left_Eye's mistake, not 2pacs. You cannot, or at least SHOULD NOT punish any player twice for the same offense. Left_Eye fucked up here. Punish him for that. Reprimand Left_Eye from doing his job wrong the first time, and thus creating this controversy far after the fact. Therefore, if you use this excuse based on rules, I disagree on principle as well.

Either way you look at it, I disagree due to staff taking the wrong approach, not punishing their own or admitting their own fuck ups, and for taking it out on the player instead. Admit when you make a mistake, own up to that mistake, and do not try to force bigger punishments on players simply because you made a mistake. How in the world can you hold a player accountable when you cannot hold yourselves accountable?

I disagree on these principles.


Btw, Eph you know I agree with you in principle about almost everything else that you have to say in this game, so I will say I respectfully disagree with you as well. I'm not sticking up for 2pac in defense of what 2pac did or didn't do. I'm sticking up for a player that I view as being wronged by staff, due to staff making a mistake.

btw: I happen to like Left_Eye as a player, always have. That doesn't give an excuse for what happened though. If I was banG op and I screwed up a ban on a player due to not checking previous bans, and that player served out the length of the ban I gave him, I would not find it right or just to ban that player again after the fact.

[Shaddowknight]

As far as the netban from DS, being that it was a SSC NET BAN, and the SSC still exists, that ban is still valid. Consider the SSC as a country, and individual zones as states/provinces. Braking a state/provincial law will stick around while you're there, but won't carry over to others generally. Break a national law and it's with you no matter where in the nation you go. Just sucks for you that there's only one "country" to be in.

[Ephemeral]

2pac,
I am not sure what you mean by ‘not being around’. I have played this zone, without interruption, since 1998. I would say that I am more active, in terms of playing, then the vast majority of players.

In my book ANY exploit is fucking the community over. It isn’t only the handful of player who might have been online in some arena or at the particular time. I’ve played this zone for 16 years and have never been banned, have many friends, and have had very few run in with any staffers.

Staff is simply a subset of the rest of the player community. Are there or have there been assholes on staff? Sure; same as there are plenty of assholes in the player population. I am trying to help you here, like I said IMO you have gone about getting the ban lifted, and generating public support, all wrong.

I don’t kiss anyone’s ass on staff, but I have some influence. So even though I have definitely pissed some of them off and even burned a few bridges, I still have a fair amount of support. You can reject my advice if you want, and blow me off as someone who doesn’t matter. Fuck, even if you don’t buy into anything I’ve said I would think that by this time you have seen that your approach has not worked for you and would be considering a radical different approach.
eph