The Leviathan

[KrynetiX]

As you're all aware, the Leviathan has been subjected to countless changes over the years, and the extremely dedicated 'LT' population we once had is now pretty much gone.

I'm sure we all remember the years Trench Wars had multiple public arenas. Usually two, one for 'Pure Basing' (Leviathans were not allowed in this pub arena) and one unrestricted (for LT's, Leviathan allowed, no restrictions). Each being limited to 36 players. The 37th player would spawn in a new public arena and wait for it to either fill up, or for a spot in one of the active arenas to open up.

Those days are long gone, as we're doing the best we can to cater to an ever decreasing population. We simply don't have enough players to run multiple public arenas. Thus, the decision was made to use just one public arena with no limit on how many players could enter. This is where we're at today, and it causes a conflict between 'pure' basers and LT's.

Under these circumstances, the Leviathan was a game killer.

I was exclusively an LT for many years. It's all I did in pub. So I'm sympathetic to the LT's who have had their fun time stripped from them, over and over. Our population simply can't support that style of gameplay.

The idea was to weaken the Leviathan (or more specifically, LT), and try to develop it into a basing ship with slight modifications. I'm sure many people are frustrated with the changes, as if this is our attitude - why don't we just cut to the chase and disable Leviathan's attaching to Terriers? However, that's a bold change, and one that will surely have its consequences.

Something has to be done, ultimately. We can't restore full power bombs and allow LT's to run around unrestricted, as they'll drop bombs on our already small basing population.

The first change to the Leviathan (and the boldest change) was reducing the radius and damage of their bomb. This decision was shunned by the LT's but praised by the basers - and we did see the size and intensity of basing games increase quite noticeably/dramatically. Long and steady basing games endured the entire day/evening and most of the night. However, for reasons I don't believe are related to settings, populated has once again declined.

More recently, after much discussion, the Leviathan was the subject of another change, as I'm sure you're all aware. This change is once again based on the idea that the classic LT is a game killer during low population, and that the Leviathan should be more geared towards basing. Speed was increased and maximum repels was decreased to 1. The feedback and reaction from players on this change was, as usual, two-sided. I'm starting to think if the accepted attitude is that the classic LT is unhealthy for a low population, we might as well disable attaching to Terriers and beef up other stats (like more repels, other items, rotation, etc) to make it a more suitable basing ship. However that's just an idea, please add yours.

Preserving this game/zone is up to all of us, and there is no political 'council' making blind changes behind the scenes - it's just me, you (the players), staff and TWDev. I don't have the definitive answer, I just know there's imbalance. There was imbalance immediately when multiple pubs were consolidated to one. There remains imbalance because we've never really 'hit the spot' with Leviathan settings (and the Weasel is also questionable).

You can all rest assured that no other ship will be the subject of any future changes to settings. They are perfect.

To sum this up, our current attitude is that LT'ing is unfortunately not possible with such a small population. Thus, the Leviathan should be reassigned as a basing ship. If you agree with this attitude or don't agree with this attitude, please add your thoughts here.

Please, add your two cents to this thread. It's just me and TWDev/staff/players, no political 'board' or 'council' of inactive higher-ups making decisions they know nothing about. I'm open to every bit of criticism negative or positive (hence the !comment system, use it), any ideas or suggestions, anything.

[bkgmjo]

If you care about what I say:
Never touch a running system. That has barely ever been proven as great as on the pub changes. People complained about LT for 15 years, yet they stayed online. People complained about staff for just as long, yet they stayed on. People complain for the heck of it. But none of this complaining ever really dropped population. Besides mostly time primarily game changes did, drastically at times. On the one side staff keeps talking about a ton of initiatives, councils and whatnot to bring people to the game and improve it, on the other what is done is constantly driving certain groups of players from the game, players who stayed for a decade before they were criminalized randomly. Attention of staff has been directed to events and leagues which have ship restrictions and do not allow the full gameplay Trench Wars offers. Would be fine since people enjoy those events, but what is the point of pressing this kind of play on all players and taking the fun out for them just because a minor group of people cannot play their desired events 24/7 as there is simply not as much interest as in the classic "free for all options"?
If you really care about improving this game start at the bugs, ban people like renzi and LF and don't make them staff for getting the zone listed in family filters after spreading child porn via Trench Wars and spicing quite some interest at FBI and others, build up on the game features that are working and attracting people instead of finding new ones constantly and play more instead of discussing how others have to play all day. After all active players are the most attractive factor to any game.

For a fun fact, if you want to go by what players say (most used words in "!comment", overhead of the file grayed out)

Word            Frequency

nov             288
session         262
jan             241
dec             230
feb             229
oct             192
start           154
bot             151
reinstantiation 138
ende            123
lev             107
levi            105
back             77
pub              77
change           69
please           68
blue             67
make             65
game             65
buy              58
get              55
one              52
fuck             49
new              49
freq             47
player           46
just             46
lt               45
time             44
safe             41
setting          40
people           39
ship             37
good             36

[Wazzaaa.nl]

my 2 cents?
make schedules for pure basing in pub and when levis can blow shit up in LT's
so people can decide theirself when they want to play and have their fun

[Shaddowknight]

Ill add that the most revent levi change has had !comments basically split in half with those that loke and hate it. I support balancing them, as I personally feel like the settings should be balanced, and the bot should enchance gameplay, instead of relying on the bot to keep things fair. If all hell breaks loose during bot downtime with 30 levis and half of pub getting tired and speccing, then theres a problem that isnt the bot. In the recent past staffers have witnessed groups of pubbers speccingwhen high power lts started forming in pub. It detracts from basing- the core focus of the zone.

[Azov]

As a dedicated and devoted LTer (it's all I do in pub), I oppose any substantial changes that affects the Leviathan. That being said, I was comfortable with the first change which brought about Level 2 bombs. That was a fair balancing if there had to be one. But now we've gone in a direction of extremes, all while frantically trying to appease one group, then another, and then another. I think our time would be better spent marketing and spending money in the direction of advertising in other mediums; then we won't have to worry about a declining population because it'll go up.

[LF]

ban people like LF

Off Topic: You need better sources than Brentos and/or whatever sources you think you have, because I never had anything to do with that. I'd school you on what actually happened but I'd rather the whole situation just die since its 2 years old now and people still create their own versions of what happened. Bottom line is I was never involved, and thats all there is to it.

On Topic: Kryn, I really like your very simple response to the very simple argument of "Its always been a part of trench wars", and that's "Trenchwars is not what it used to be". It was different back then when we had enough people playing pub that we could pull 3-4 people away from the basing (public) freqs to hunt down an LT because there was still enough people to keep the action going in the meantime. These days pulling half of the currently playing population to hunt down a half decent LT simply destroys any active basing so much that even when they arent lobbing blind strays into random walls and killing 8 people at once, they are killing base by making people chase them while they protect their precious records. I go out of my way to kill most levis every time I see them, even if it means spawning/laming/forcing them to spec and it makes me feel like I'm doing the rest of the arena justice by doing so. Most levi players will call me lame when I spawn them, but think its perfectly ok to kill me and 5 others with a single shot blindly fired from half an arena away. However, despite that I am extremely bias because I hate levs, I don't think forcing them out entirely is the way to go. I don't think having specific times of pure pub would be a bad idea even if it is substantially less time than non-pure pub. Allowing weekend pure pub or 'peak hours' without levis would be fantastic, or even disabling them entirely when less than X (Lets say 10) people are playing because there is nothing worse than playing 4v4v2 in pub and having some random newbie in lev fly by and launch a stray and kill everybody in 1 shot. My 2 cents

[but...why...per...]

I have to say I'm of a similar mind set to Azov, I think we need to stop meddling with the settings and focus on getting the population back up. If we can get the population back to a sustainable 2 pub population, then we can revert back the pure and non-basing pubs and everyone can be happy.

Pub is supposed to be an introduction to Trench Wars, it makes little sense to me to have the settings in pub different to all other arenas. Pub should be a fun, mess around, skirmish arena for players to get a feel for the game. I respect that the levi/LT needs to be nerfed to an extent to reflect the current population and to preserve basing, although removing a levi's ability to attach definitely would be the wrong way to go about it.

[qan]

Agree: Levi can be destructive to basing/pop if left unchecked.

Disagree: It should be reworked into a basing ship. If we wanted to do that, it would probably need to be reassigned from a straight bomber ... or would need L1 bombs + perhaps some slow-moving shrap, or the old EMP change. It's been tried before and it generally doesn't work, for various reasons. One of them is that everyone still wants to play the old Levi. (Also, if a ship is a basing ship, it needs to have no attach bounty associated.)

Levi is a staple of pub. I would personally rather see L3 Levi back but with changes that do not alter its core mechanic. L2 also works -- it's been shown to be effective still, and in some ways better than L3, as you really can base with it to some extent -- but I'd honestly like to see a way to make standard L3 work again. I really do think we can please everyone here: give people a way to Lev, but without a significant cost to basing or population. Also, remember, LTers are still part of the population. They might not keep base going, but they do keep players in game: not just the LTs themselves, but their hunters, who are usually the newer spawnkilling WBs.



My background regarding the issue: Almost exclusively a baser. I've LT'd a small bit in my day, and do find it enjoyable, but I'm more likely to hunt LTs. The fact that they have to be hunted makes for an interesting subgame -- always has, in my opinion. It creates danger in pub. And a long-standing feud between LTers and hunters. And ... when an LT gets through and pops a base, well, it's pretty magical, even if you're the one exploding/raging.


Some possible alterations we could make (of course with other complementary/balancing changes) to try to correct the issue, without altering the core ship settings (speed, thrust, rotation, max energy, recharge):

1. Assign times to force pure pub, and have the schedule managed via bot.
2. Force pure pub when population dips below a certain level, with a 5-minute warning to LTs.
3. Strip them down to their core ... no repels, no portal, no rocket.
4. Allow no LT to !buy after the Levi attaches to the Terr and the Terr isn't in base (they have to !buy in safe still)/allow no Levi to !buy, period. Include a minute or so of delay time, so Terrs can't detach their Levi and then !buy. This would force them to move through spawn to green ports, risking their necks.
5. !buy L3, which lasts a certain amount of time, certain number of shots, etc. Might have a minimum bounty requirement, too.
6. Make !buy roofturret more affordable and with a small time delay between purchases. If people would like to base without distraction, they can enable that and have at least some of the problem handled. Could also have !buy roofturret left/right/etc., which would spawn a turret to the left or right of roof, to try to catch LTs by surprise. Note that LTs (well, private freqs) can't buy a roof turret any longer, as it was used to create a perfect shield to destroy base ... so this would probably only be used by basers, likely.

Core ship settings alterations we don't often consider:

1. Increase bomb and bullet fire delay. What if a Levi could fire a bomb only once every X seconds, and that firing also kept them from firing anything else?
2. Increase bomb fire cost to very close to full energy.
3. Increase gun fire cost.
4. Increase afterburner cost (already very high, but you could make it essentially a key no Levi would want to touch).
5. Reduce recharge. Of course, recharge is already punishing enough.
6. Reduce maximum energy (could honestly make it so 1 spider bullet kills a Levi, if we wanted; adjust recharge and bomb/bullet fire cost accordingly).

I was initially very opposed to the L2 Levi when the attach bounty was pushed back to 20, but after awhile it seemed to work... people still played it, though of course it was not as effective at base-popping, and so wasn't LT'd as much. Each month I usually pub more than any other member of staff (not bragging! ...we record it), and have had a fair chance to see its effects.

The effect I see is: just not many LTs anymore. I know that's the point, but... that just makes me a little sad. Many of us play this game for purposes of nostalgia. Some of us are very nostalgic about LTs -- playing them, killing them, being destroyed by them. I think there is not just a third way, but a fourth, fifth, eighteenth way we can try before further altering what has become a core pub ship. I have yet to see a single successful ship overhaul since Lancs were able to fire multiples (made it a bit OP, though) and small Weasel was created (and some would argue that was a bad change). I'm not sure we're even at a point where we're able to make such calls anymore -- I don't feel qualified, personally. It's just too central to the idea of what TW is.

[KrynetiX]

Thanks guys.


Options under the Sun:

#1. Pure Pub: For example, every Friday from 6pm to midnight, Saturday noon to 6pm, Sunday through Thursday unrestricted. (or something along those lines)

#2. No Attach: I don't like this idea, I don't think anyone does. 99.9999% chance we don't do this..) <--bad idea..

#3. Population Limit: Disable the Leviathan when population is under 10-15 (or so) active in-game, playing, players.

#4. Basing Levi: Instead of making small adjustments to make Levi a better basing ship - we might as well go with this plan 100% and implement a true basing Levi in the absence of LT'ing. <--likely the best option currently on the table in this bad situation..

We are eventually going to launch a proper advertising / marketing campaign. Even if it's something simple like paying www.games.com $2,000 to promote us and run our ads. (fake example)

Advertising and Marketing highlight other departments. We need to make sure everything is in ship-shape and that we're prepared for the possibility of an increase of new players. The important websites must be checked, the current Continuum installer must be updated again, etc.

When a new player installs Continuum and enters Trench Wars, we don't want them instantly tossed into a game that is in conflict with itself. We need a solid stance on this. Once and for all.

Ideally I'd like to remove all restrictions on ships (even L3 Levi) and return to old-fashioned LT's, the 'good old days', obviously. We need increased population to support that game style. We're losing players left and right, and these indecisive changes along with no definitive direction certainly don't help us.

Facts are facts, however. We can't allow the classic Leviathan (and ultimately LT) during low population. If populated ever picks up again we can unveil our awesome secret game element: the LT.

Until then, I believe option #4 is the most sensible and predictable direction to shoot for.

The whole idea of this is depressing. We're trying to adjust to the fact that our population currently cannot sustain one of our most popular styles of gameplay (LT). So we're looking for the best way to remove something we all love, and no option will be IDEAL as they all result in the removal of LT's until further notice (until population picks up).

Or we can just restore the classic Leviathan and allow unlimited LT'ing until every remaining basing player quits. LT's can't exist without basers, so the LT's will eventually kill the last sucker still floating around and that'll be the end of Trench Wars.

As it currently stands, it looks like we can keep trying to save the classic Leviathan/LT by implementing haphazard changes that require constant band-aids and essentially STRIP usefulness from the Levi altogether .. OR we can face the music and temporarily change the Leviathan into a heavy-bombing BASING ship.

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Any other ideas? ... :\

[KrynetiX]

Levi is a staple of pub.

Also, remember, LTers are still part of the population. They might not keep base going, but they do keep players in game: not just the LTs themselves, but their hunters, who are usually the newer spawnkilling WBs.

Some possible alterations we could make (of course with other complementary/balancing changes) to try to correct the issue, without altering the core ship settings (speed, thrust, rotation, max energy, recharge):

1. Assign times to force pure pub, and have the schedule managed via bot.
2. Force pure pub when population dips below a certain level, with a 5-minute warning to LTs.
3. Strip them down to their core ... no repels, no portal, no rocket.
4. Allow no LT to !buy after the Levi attaches to the Terr and the Terr isn't in base (they have to !buy in safe still)/allow no Levi to !buy, period. Include a minute or so of delay time, so Terrs can't detach their Levi and then !buy. This would force them to move through spawn to green ports, risking their necks.
5. !buy L3, which lasts a certain amount of time, certain number of shots, etc. Might have a minimum bounty requirement, too.
6. Make !buy roofturret more affordable and with a small time delay between purchases. If people would like to base without distraction, they can enable that and have at least some of the problem handled. Could also have !buy roofturret left/right/etc., which would spawn a turret to the left or right of roof, to try to catch LTs by surprise.

Core ship settings alterations we don't often consider:

1. Increase bomb and bullet fire delay. What if a Levi could fire a bomb only once every X seconds, and that firing also kept them from firing anything else?
2. Increase bomb fire cost to very close to full energy.
3. Increase gun fire cost.
4. Increase afterburner cost (already very high, but you could make it essentially a key no Levi would want to touch).
5. Reduce recharge. Of course, recharge is already punishing enough.
6. Reduce maximum energy (could honestly make it so 1 spider bullet kills a Levi, if we wanted; adjust recharge and bomb/bullet fire cost accordingly).

I think there is not just a third way, but a fourth, fifth, eighteenth way we can try before further altering what has become a core pub ship.

I'm glad you added your voice here qan, as I agree with you wholly. I'm looking at your lists of alterations and I believe a combination of those alterations could effectively allow LT's and basers to co-exist (as they inherently should).

This is exactly what I was looking for - a list of possible adjustments to make LT's a little less dominating. Assign at least one night every week to Pure Pub. Force Pure Pub when population dips. ETC.

With this comprehensive list of options laid out on the table, it does seem possible to please everyone. Well, not everyone :P ..

[Jones]

wzl and levi are fillerships in tw. they are not used in twl or twd. this makes them a special case. we have basically two options:

change their settings to please the small % that uses them or scrap them entirely

a good compromise is pure pub but that doesnt eliminate the root of the problem

the root is that all tw ships are unbalanced. wzl's and levi's are not needed to make this game better for new players. they are only needed to prevent a small % of people from leaving this game entirely. that's what you gotta figure out.

[Jones]

my opinion is to scrap them

cant edit so here we go

[bkgmjo]

Hm Kryn, since you and others speak of facts about LTs removing players in the long run, can you like... list them? We've heard many opinions and have our own but maybe some objective data can solve this.

[KrynetiX]

We're currently not recording adequate statistics, and TW never really has. I've been wanting to get that done for a long time, but it's time consuming and our developers are already busy on essential maintenance and tickets with higher priorities. It's quite a task. The idea is to record everything, such as what arena each player visits, how long they stay in each arena, which ships they use (or spec) in each arena, etc. .. Everything you can imagine. So ultimately we can run advanced queries on the database to answer deeper questions such as "What's the most popular ship in pub on Thursdays?" or "Which ship gets the most kills in pub?" or "What ship is being used the least?" or, on topic, "What's the difference in player count since month/day/year?" (date Levi changes were made)

Unfortunately we haven't been recording such data, so we can't run these queries. Having such a bot module developed would provide us with invaluable information to navigate future changes.

As for my loose use of the word 'fact' .. it's been blatantly obvious to me. Before the L2 adjustment I thought to myself "I'm going to hop in a Leviathan, green up, attach to an LT and RUIN the pub game going on.", and I did exactly that with ease. I sat back and watched LT's dominate for months. Population was very low and steadily dropping. The game rarely grew past 7v7. When a basing game would finally emerge, LT's stopped it with ease..

The moment we dropped the Levi bomb to L2 and 'throttled' the Levi .. basing increased immediately. I wish we were recording stats, especially at that period of time. Games grew strong and large, and repeated all day/evening and most of the night. We're still seeing these games today, but population is still going down slowly.

Of course this is just my testimony and I don't have any material to back up my statements, it's just what I witnessed (with others).

[KrynetiX]

I received this message from a player in-game:

Time Killer: Heya. I hear you've got some LT decisions to make? Is it possible to make it so that Sharks cannot attach to Terriers when a Leviathan is attached? And only one Leviathan per Terrier? LT helpers (Sharks) are the main problem in my opinion.

^^ Very good point in my opinion. It's common practice for LT's to have a Shark (or three) attach to them to repeatedly spam repels. It's basically a fail-proof method with all those repels. Along with the other deterrents and adjustments qan listed, let's not allow Sharks to attach to a Terrier that has a Leviathan attached. I think that's a very good idea. Also only allow one Leviathan per Terrier. With all the deterrents put in place we can most likely restore L3 and perhaps restore the traditional LT experience we used to Love.