QuantumSpace - Continuum replacement project

[kthx]

This is on scale with The Manhattan Project. It will change the fate of this world forever. I have undertaken the responsibility to monitor the progression of this glorious project very closely and will be updating the community regularly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSNREtboX3s

[Falconeer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSNREtboX3s

Eat shit and cry.

[ogron]

Any update on this?

If we could make actual changes to the game, maybe we could actually make it good and launch it on Steam.

Getting tired of repeating this, but throwing new players into pub, which is just an awful, awful, awful experience that isn't representative of all the best aspects of the game, featuring bad graphics and weird controls, with racist and weirdo spammers, is a recipe for failure.

If you watch an interview with game developers, they say the same thing: you have like 2 minutes to make a good impression with a new user, and if you don't, you lose them. How long do you think it takes for a new user to learn the controls, figure out what TWD is, register, sign up on the website, find a team, and play? Probably months. The odds of keeping a new player that long with their initial experience being pub is close to zero.

Look at successful games...

Here's my experience as a new user with an online game:

League of Legends

1) While I'm installing, there's a link with a Quick Start guide with pictures and the basics. The concept of killing the enemy base, lanes, turrets, 5v5, and minions is established.

2) There's a big fat PLAY button on the client when I boot it. That's it, I click that and it matchmakes me into a game with other newbies

3) The default setting is playing against 5 easy robots

4) My interest is maintained by progression in leveling up to 30 as I learn playing against computers and develop my skills

5) If I don't know the hotkeys I can click, and the QWER are listed on the abilities anyway... easy to figure out.

6) Champions keep the game fresh, there's an innate desire to unlock new champions and try them out.


None of these things have been done with this game. Graphics aren't even THAT big of an issue. They help, but the main issue is the game is doing a horrible job showing players how to play, the best parts of it (TWD, elim, leagues, and in the past, hosted events were massively popular), and training them.

People we call 6* and 7* star scrubs and bad players often have 10,000 hours and 10 years experience. The gap between a new player and those guys is an ocean. You need bots for people to practice against. You need to show them the fun parts of the league, give them visual cues on ship abilities, etc.

There's a hundred things that need to be done, and from what Qan has told me, they can't be done on the current client.

So, if Poid can do those things and re-shape the game, it could theoretically launch on Steam and legitimately bring players in.

[qan]

POiD's still working on it, but it's just something he does in his spare time. It's meant as a client replacement with the addition of some modern features, such as mouse support. However, I don't think he's really in the place to do the kind of complete overhaul needed.

I've talked with Wirah about this a bit, and we're both of the same mind that to truly bring back Subspace in any meaningful sense, we'd need a startup company. Some guys putting in a few hours after work or on the weekends is fine for maintaining the status quo. But in order to do what is needed -- a complete rethinking of the game for modern audiences, in many respects -- it needs to be done professionally. There just is not enough time available, and the amount that needs to be done (not just programming, but much of what you're talking about, such as design streamlining so that it's accessible) is too great.

If it were to be taken on by a team, it would also need to be profitable. So we'd see either a sticker price on the game and/or a cosmetics store. Or, god help us, ads. And with a profit motive would come all the other necessities, such as very active moderation of chat, company control of all zones, and the risk of being shut down at any time when it's no longer making money, as happened with SS originally.

Might be pessimistic, but I've thought a lot about it and I just don't see a way forward for this game, at least in its current state. I wish this weren't the case. Best case is probably QuantumSpace and a better UI, plus a built-in tutorial you can play before you enter a zone.

[Rab]

All projects in this thread look either dead or going nowhere to me. A client alone isn't sufficient, a new server is also required, and also the functionality from our websites (twd/twdt/etc), we need full control over all aspects of the game otherwise it's not worthwhile. I think browser-based with WebSockets is the right technology choice for the client. I would have done my own project too if I thought there was any chance of people actually using the finished product. I have tons of time for the next year or so. Then unknown after that. It's how life goes as a developer, sometimes you are super busy, sometimes you aren't. That's why this project will never succeed with a single developer. So I agree it would require a few full time devs and that would require it to be a profitable company. As a player, my favourite business model would be a monthly subscription. Because it keeps toxic kids out, and avoids microtransactions, adverts, etc.

[ogron]

POiD's still working on it, but it's just something he does in his spare time. It's meant as a client replacement with the addition of some modern features, such as mouse support. However, I don't think he's really in the place to do the kind of complete overhaul needed.

I've talked with Wirah about this a bit, and we're both of the same mind that to truly bring back Subspace in any meaningful sense, we'd need a startup company.

I agree that that is probably the only realistic way to have a successful videogame that is similar to what we currently enjoy with a large playerbase again, as it is a lot of work to create or transform a game.

The way to do it would be to make it a F2P game with the same monetization system as LoL and DOTA 2 -- unlocking champions and cosmetics.

you could streamline the main part of the game as 8v8 basing, with a champion select screen. as I told poid, the way to get players into the game is spidering. Basing with a bunch of Lancs/WBs/Javs blows and it's a bad experience akin to pub, which is shit. Spidering is easy for new players to have an impact and get 60-70 kills, the 15-30 minute basing games are perfect length, the premise is simple and the focus is similar to Overwatch in the sense that winning and teamplay are emphasized and stats are not. The feeling of getting that many kills and fighting for the flag is positive reinforcement.

Being in a 5v5 warbird match and going 2-10 is not. the wide open spaces are just a breeding ground to get abused by vets. in base the top spiders get killed plenty. jav is way too high skill level and one of the hardest leagues to excel in.

You could have the old stuff like wb, jav, pub, etc. but those would be things you discover later on, and have to manually find. The initial impression should be like LoL... you hit play, join a matchmaking game, play against bots in spider, and level up and unlock champs with a free rotation of champs to start out. level up to 30 or w/e before you can even sniff ranked.

Veterans of subspace could manually select matchmaking for wb or jav, or there's a sandbox mode aka pub for people who like that, but you would never throw or direct a newbie there.

I know how a champion system would work with basing, as I've kept notes on it and refined it over the years in terms of balance and maintaining what is fun about the game currently, while keeping it fresh and new. Champions would be fun, as everyone loves being the lone WB or Jav in a 8v8 base game... the issue is it is horribly unbalanced and not fun for everyone else being the canvas upon which you paint your lobbing, TKing masterpiece. There's clever ways around that, of course that could keep the ethos intact while adding a lot more complexity and giving the game a monetization angle to stay afloat and keep the game thriving.

[qan]

I'm not sure TW basing has enough mass appeal to be the centerpiece. Though it could certainly work as a game mode. It's a bit too technical, and at this point, slightly antiquated in terms of mechanics. Not to say that it's not incredibly refined, but I don't think it's the type of experience that most players are looking for. I could be wrong. But I think it would also be hard to convince investors it's a solid bet. TW's also just one zone, and other gametypes with other settings are much preferred by some people.

Any team that approached a reenvisioning of SS would be looking for mass appeal. Probably you'd see a Battle Royale mode. Still think that could be a lot of fun with SS settings; I've played a fair bit of surviv.io, which is a top-down version of BR, vaguely reminiscent of SS, and it's definitely the best implementation of it so far. BR in 3D is hot garbage, as it's far too easy to just get sniped or camped. Might be successful with SS mechanics.

DM and Team DM I imagine would also be quite popular, as well as something like CTF, soccer and so on. The dev team would likely eliminate the concept of zones, and simply have matchmaking across a large array of game modes. That has the disadvantage of leaving the community without a connected core, though. Such a big part of SS's success has come from its strong community.

If not going that route, in order to work from the "SS but better" model, something like POiD's client would need to be developed alongside a server, and we'd need a legacy protocol as well as a new protocol. Legacy would allow us to support old bots, and the new one would allow us to expand features.

Probably the biggest hurdle there is security, though. Priit saved SS by throwing absolutely insane protections on top of the old code, so that memory couldn't be tampered with. SS is what's called "client-authoritative," meaning the server just believes whatever the client tells it is true (within limits). This is fantastic for reducing network traffic, and it's how we were able to play SS on modems back in the day. But it's just absolute shit in terms of security. Priit's protections are legendary-tier -- the man is a genius. Not sure there's anyone around who could do that job again. Maybe a new SS team could license the code from him. If we kept the old SS in any sense, we'd have to work around this problem.

On the other hand, if the more server-authoritative approach were used, we'd lose that butter-smooth movement we've all become accustomed to. We've all seen other players lag in SS. But we ourselves never lag on our screens (well, there are some exceptions to this, especially when we lag out/DC), because we are the authority broadcasting our position. In server-authoritative games, your avatar can lag. You'll be moving along and then will be placed back where you were half a second ago, because the server tells your client where you are. It's fairly minor but it would probably trigger a lot of vets when it happened. "WTF, original SS never did this, and it was made more than 20 years ago... Who coded this piece of trash?" Etc.

[ogron]

It's a bit too technical, and at this point, slightly antiquated in terms of mechanics

What does that mean? Too technical? How are the mechanics antiquated? Have you played 8v8 league basing seriously? What experience are you bringing to the table to make such sweeping negative statements?

Overwatch has unintentionally cribbed the essence of what basing is -- capture a point with 3-4 different classes, including some DPSes (spiders) and a defensive shielder (sharks). I don't see how those are antiquated. The model is incredibly successful.

There are more basers than javs or warbirds. Moreover, most pubbers are basers, they're just playing a worse version of it. The fact that they enjoy basing in the same FR as pro leagues with horribly unbalanced lines and unbalanced ships in a sandbox modes speaks volumes to the innate appeal of CTF in this game. Many players from EG and other zones come here and their preference is to base as it shares similarities with their leagues.

Basers are the largest group of players in the largest zone. Spider is the easiest ship to pickup and play casually and get kills.

Probably you'd see a Battle Royale mode. Still think that could be a lot of fun with SS settings

???

We already have a Battle Royale mode... it's called elim. It was the most popular part of Trench Wars for like 12 years. That is literally what BR is. A bunch of players on their own eliminating each other until only one person is left.

Subspace was a pioneer and had game modes that are suddenly popular decades before they caught on. We already have an Overwatch mode, it's called basing. We already have Battle Royale, it's called elim.

The difference is those games have things like Champions in LoL or Overwatch where only one person can be that character, and they're monetized through character customization and skins and are peppered with frequent updates and have nice graphics.

Priit's protections are legendary-tier -- the man is a genius. Not sure there's anyone around who could do that job again.

That's your area of expertise, I'll take your word for it.

The odds of a venture bringing this game back are close to nil, anyway. The 3 main drivers were: 1) competitive leagues 2) elim 3) pub

1) Competitive CTF leagues like Overwatch, CS:GO, etc. have all overtaken what this game can offer
2) Battle Royale games are now a multi-billion dollar industry with Fortnite and PUBG which elim can't compete with
3) Pub requires hundreds of people to be fun. Sandbox mode-games exist all over the place now and are full blown games.

I'd argue that competitive CTF is the best bet (i.e., 8v8 basing) with Champions, but certainly Battle Royale is an excellent mode and was insanely popular in SS's heyday. But it would also require either Champions or tons of power-ups, abilities, updates, etc.

Any way you slice it, it requires an overhaul to keep the game interesting and fresh.

People love the core of this game, but there's only so many warbird matches you can play with a shoot and shift button and nothing else. Elim sucks without enough people. Ditto pub, which I played a ton of. And I cared more about elim than I did leagues back in the day, as did many others.

Champions don't lend themselves nearly as well to TWJD or TWDD, though, and any massive overhaul would require monetization. Champions and skins allow the game to continue to be F2P.

Elim and Battle Royale games are a dime a dozen now and are the new "it" girl. Competitive CTF with interesting dynamics between a terr, shark, and spider are incredibly rare and special, and we actually have a game that is better than Overwatch. But unless you're a veteran baser, you'll never realize it or the intricacies.

The amount of skill and expertise that goes into playing shark is amazing. I suck at it and it constantly impresses me what the top players do. I'm good enough to know what they're doing. I can't think of a single-game that has the same core gameplay as 2 sharks working as a pair in perfect unison with no bullets, with spiders following them in their wake, and a terr quarterbacking the team and trying to stay alive, and understanding the burst patterns, or cramming.

If there was anything unique and worth building on in this game, it's that. Nothing else has that. Every other game has what warbird elim has.

[Rab]

I agree with Ogron about basing being the best entry-point to ss. I think equally important is how easy it is to socialise. Atm we pretty much all know each other, and ss has always been like that. It's really easy to make squads, really easy to make chats, and really easy to just speak to the people who are around - because chances are they're the same people who are around every day. For me that's the most important thing about ss, and it's something most games lack. Using Overwatch as an example, I like that game, it's well built, well balanced, and fun - but it all feels impersonal. I always struggle to find a community in modern games that comes anywhere close to ss, I just feel like another customer on someone's spreadsheet and none of the other players would notice if I wasn't there. I think that's why streaming has become popular - all those people wish their games contained community features, but because the games all suck, people are trying to find communities elsewhere.

[Falconeer]

When games are impersonal i just make a 100-200 player guild, and suddenly i see the same people every day. Games that lack guild creation functionality are crap usually. In subspace you can make squads. Guns of Icarus you can make guilds, and I had a 100 player guild there when i played. World of warships you can make guilds, though it's harder to start one there. Warframe you can make guilds and I had a guild there. etc. If your guild knows you well and it's a similar game all you have to do is tell them to come play subspace and 20% of them will and 20% of 100 players is 20 new people.

Anyone who has time, like me, or others, who wants subspace to grow, could find similar games, make guilds, and then call their guild over (maybe make a squad) and enter leagues.

[Crescent Seal]

This is on scale with The Manhattan Project. It will change the fate of this world forever. I have undertaken the responsibility to monitor the progression of this glorious project very closely and will be updating the community regularly.

2/27/2019 Update: Poid is playing a JD to better understand the physics of the game. This research is extremely useful for the Quantam Galactic Project.

[Crescent Seal]

I'am extremely thrilled to announce that Poid has finally completed the QuantumSpace project and it is being released tomorrow (7/23/2022) at 10:00 am EST. This project will replace the current Continuum game thanks to his endless hard work and diligence.

[Vehicle]

Just in time for DT finals!

[Exalt]

For those interested, POiD is still actively working on this project. There are quite a lot of details that go into it, especially when you're attempting to make a new client that is almost perfectly backwards-compatible. But he's continuing to develop it, and it's been at the state where it's able to connect to real SS servers for quite some time now.

Good call on asking J3. I'll mention that to him, in case he doesn't monitor this thread. He mentioned looking for a 3D modeler some time ago.

Oh boy, POiD is still (7 years later) working on a near-exact copy of a 2d space game first created in 1995! This man is the next Derrick Smart and Chris Roberts put together! What a legend! Make sure to donate to his patreon and reserve yourself a custom 2d spaceship model! If you join the legendary donater tier and buy him a new house, you can get your name on the title screen!

[Jessup]

I'am extremely thrilled to announce that Poid has finally completed the QuantumSpace project and it is being released tomorrow (7/23/2022) at 10:00 am EST. This project will replace the current Continuum game thanks to his endless hard work and diligence.