We need to draw a line

...too little, too late.

The player ephemeral was talking about was pinky<narf>...you dont realize that 99% of players agree theres about 5-10 TOTAL that need to be gone, and over 90% of players would have NO ISSUE LOSING FOR GOOD.

pinky<narf>, tower, manco, warcraft, Lrim, falconeer...there you go. start with them. i promise you 90% of the players could care less if they were gone for good. they would most likely feel that there is a drastic improvement.

but, "i reckon" you unfortunately don't really care either way what happens to this game when it comes down to it. i feel like you are partially to blame for this (especially if you are in charge of this area as it appears to be)..im sorry but thats just the way it feels for me because i see you say the same thing every time someone is essentially saying to start using some common sense and get rid of these people. you (and other staff) won't give it a try, and the game got worse and worse each year. it really is that simple...but you make it seem like this is such a complicated issue it's so frustrating...

idk why im writing this...good luck i guess..

[qan]

Did you seek feedback? Aside from me actually trying to proactively solve this, there's no reason why players would have known to send you feedback, or even known the experiment was taking place. I've received a few messages of support, but people don't actually believe I can get you to change. How about running a survey?

I'd asked staffers for feedback, and didn't hear any mentions of players who had supported or didn't support it, though got some staff opinions who generally saw it as a net positive. It did seem noticeably more quiet in blue, and much of the chat was focused on the game itself.

There's a periodic arena message currently running about buying STFU, but, agreed, it might help to update it with information that it's more readily available. Will add it to notes.

Sure, sounds good on trying to get feedback about this issue. Let's run a poll with the votebot. Here's some preliminary wording, from what I understand of your proposal. Feel free to rephrase how you see fit. Once it's set to your liking we can run it:

"In your opinion, should any mention of politics, religion, gender, race, sexual orientation or sexuality be moderated by silencing the speaker?"

You're lying...i really do not believe that players were PMing you saying "hey yea this is great thanks for solving the problems of this zone now"...it is not good, the problem(s) won't be fixed until you get rid of about 5-10 players. everyone knows who they are.

What I meant in saying "it's good" is what I saw in response to the trial of permanent STFU. People generally thought it was good to have STFU enabled, but didn't elaborate much.

You claim that we all know who the problem players are. But I think everyone has a different idea of who they are, unfortunately. Some things bother people more than others. For example, Eph was moved to leave because someone expressed a foolish opinion about curing cancer through diet. Yet in all likelihood, few people other than him would quit because of this, or agree that this person should be banned forever from the game. It's also worth noting that under Rab's proposed rule, his talk would be considered acceptable and not worthy of even a silence. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this, Rab.)

I reckon there are very few people, if any, that everyone can agree are a net negative for the zone. If there are, perhaps it would be easy enough to be rid of them via the equivalent of a public lynching in the town square: vote on it, and they're gone.

"Didn't get much detailed feedback beyond "it's good","
-You're lying...i really do not believe that players were PMing you saying "hey yea this is great thanks for solving the problems of this zone now"...it is not good, the problem(s) won't be fixed until you get rid of about 5-10 players. everyone knows who they are.

"Not everyone thinks exactly as you do about these things, though. "
-typical excuse that qan has been giving since 2007 when i used to try and ban these idiots...he got mad at me for being emotional etc and made every excuse to try and avoid banning anyone and discredit my motives. i remember how magi koz and qan got mad when i PMed them about this 10 years ago..

i'm fucking done...and it's not just qan....its most of the staff it seems...no one wants to ban these idiots even if we all tell them that theres about 10 players no one would care about never playing again...they just will not do it.

not worth it, uninstalled a few days ago..this fuckin sucks, man..

[Rab]

Didn't get much detailed feedback beyond "it's good"

Did you seek feedback? Aside from me actually trying to proactively solve this, there's no reason why players would have known to send you feedback, or even known the experiment was taking place. I've received a few messages of support, but people don't actually believe I can get you to change. How about running a survey? Would that convince you? If you had a result that said 80% of voters support banning politics/gender/race/etc would you do it?

STFU being permanently buyable is a useful improvement, limiting when it could be bought was annoying. If you're relying on people permanently buying it to realise that it should be automatically permanently enabled you need to make sure everyone knows. E.g. arena message every 30 mins: "huge discount on :tw-p:!buy stfu, stops spec from talking in blue, if frequently used it will be permanently enabled for free".

I don't really think you're doing it on purpose, but these experiments are loaded to provide a result which confirms inaction.

Not everyone thinks exactly as you do about these things, though.

Yeah, they do, ask them.

[qan]

Having STFU permanently enabled is better than not having it. So it should be a permanent feature. /
?buy STFU is not currently permanently enabled. When will this be done?

Didn't get much detailed feedback beyond "it's good", though largely it seems like it was a net positive and only one serious complaint. It was a little confusing for some, though, who didn't realize it was enabled.

To further test the concept, !buy STFU is back. It now lasts 30 minutes, costs $3000, can be bought back-to-back, and is anonymous. This means that any player effectively has the option to permanently enable STFU if they desire (making $3000 in 30 minutes is very easy). However, it will be far more explicit what is happening: spectators will see the message, as will everyone else. If the result of this is that STFU is for most intents and purposes permanently enabled due to people buying it over and over, we can transition to a permanent state, which people will have become accustomed to by then.

Spectators talking politics, race, gender, sexuality, religion in yellow remains a problem which needs further action.

Not everyone thinks exactly as you do about these things, though. If you read back a bit, banning specific topics of discussion creates a host of problems relating to what is considered acceptable or not. We can still attempt to define what is acceptable, and come to an agreement on it, but it's not easy to do that (as evidenced by the fact that certainly not everyone agrees with your policy of banning everything remotely controversial). Because of the difficulty in coming to this agreement, some sort of community policing, where the people currently actively playing at that specific time get to decide what is acceptable, seems preferable. We're still batting around a way to make this work that would not be easily abusable. All input welcome, as always. This doesn't need to be a moral problem; it can be an engineering problem, if we frame it the right way. Those are much easier to deal with.

[Rab]

?buy STFU is not currently permanently enabled. When will this be done?

[Rab]

You can't tell someone to use ignore.txt unless you're willing to help them if players on ignore.txt create new aliases.

As a player I can't know if an alias is someone on their ignore.txt and so I could spend my entire time playing maintaining an ignore.txt list.

Staff you need to get control of this situation.

[Rab]

Having STFU permanently enabled is better than not having it. So it should be a permanent feature.

Spectators talking politics, race, gender, sexuality, religion in yellow remains a problem which needs further action.

[Attacks]

I am begining to believe im the only one who doesnt smoke weed on this game, no wonder I cant understand 90% of what people say.

Here's the fuckin facts, moron:

10 years ago On Christmas eve 2008 a heroin addict robbed me. He asked me for bud and I said ok it's 50 bucks. . He gave me 25 and drove off... I went with 2 friends to his apt and knocked on the door... My friend pushed me inside and forced himself inside as well. He then punched the addict and said don't fuck with him again...he then took his wallet which was on the kitchen table and allegedly removed money from it.

1) The "victim" died of heroin a couple years later
2) He didn't celebrate Xmas so that's completely irrelevant .. His family is Muslim..
3) I as a 21 year old stuck up for myself along with 2 others and took revenge outside of the law abiding way, sure..

Let's get one thing straight you now idiot--I stood up for myself with 2 friends to a heroin addicted scumbag that decided to rob me. He got his ass kicked and that's it. He thought he needed a stitch on his lip from the punch he took and it the BECAME THE STATE OF NJ vs me (he himself never actually filed any charges against me etc--the hospital is forced to ask what happened and they filed the report).

If you ask me that is FUCKIN NOTHING compared to luring an underage girl to drink, behave sexually, and then blackmail her with the evidence. So what do you have to say about LF? How is that anywhere near as bad as being a legit pedophile like LF? You go out of your way to comment on a fight between two 21 year olds (that has nothing to do with ss) but not say shit about the pedophile you associated with every day on this game?
I really want to see you justify caring about a fight I got involved in 12 years ago at 21 years old vs LF luring a girl on the very game we all played (which this forum is about) and then blackmailing her with the evidence.. This is a player you communicated with any time you both were online... You were both certainly friends on continuum... To me that's saying a lot more about YOUR character.

Sorry I'm being so redundant but looks like you're just trying to make me look bad over a stupid fight completely unrelated to this game or any players while I'm just stating real shit about what has happened within this community.

Again, you and all the others participated in calling my house at 4am and cursed and yelled at my dying mom when she answered the phone. YOU, PH, WERE WITHOUT A DOUBT ONE OF THEM "directly involved." whatever that means...

AGAIN, seriously, who the fk tries to defend yelling and cursing at a 60 year old woman dying of cancer? People like you are the reason this game died. LF literally jeopardized our servers with his pedo bullshit and i wouldnt be surprised if you were involved in that too..

[PH]

did you know some of these rednecks called my house after finding my ip address/home address/phone number and it was 4am? oh, and even better, my mom who had cancer answered the phone so they decided to start yelling at her and calling her a bitch.

people i think were involved: centurion, the_paul, oderus, kitty, vulcs or whatever her name is the one sucking kthx, lf, ph's dick, torturingnewbs, pagan chainsaw... they could be part of it too or be the same people etc but i remember my mom saying it was a girls voice..but i know for sure that LF centurion and ph would say my address in pub and when i tried to do anything about it no one cared. they called my house and gave my dying mom a hard time at 4am. thats are the type of people they are.

i wasn't directly involved but i do think it was damn hilarious and fitting that such a dark cloud followed you around after you decided to gather two more lowlifes and assault and rob a guy on christmas day just because you got shorted on weed

i thought maybe you would have grown at least one iota as a person in the ten years since

lol @ my naivete, you're still the same sewer rat who was so scared of a pot dealer that he brought two goons as backup

ps this new forum sucks

[Rab]

How it works: People in spec can talk in yellow but not in blue.

spec chat is still working for me...i saw vermillion flame and Lrim both responded to me when i asked if anyone can see my typing...how does this stfu weekend thing work?

[Rab]

OK, I'll turn off my ignore list and see what that experience is like.

[qan]

Thanks for continued input, guys. Just letting you know, monitoring the thread.

Trying out a STFU Weekend Flavor (!buy STFU always enabled) ... have to see what that ends up doing. People may end up going in-game to get around it (but can be continually AFK-checked). A lot of the people are just drunkards looking to ramble, and won't even notice nobody's responding, or bother to try leaving spec. And about 90% of the problem is the spec freq, not anyone actually trying to play the game.

Beyond that, trying to figure out ways to moderate without resorting to moral standards about what is or isn't allowed to be said. One of the bigger problems seems to be ruthless insults when two people are arguing or have a long-standing feud. Could ask that it be taken private (where only 1 person would see it, and can be easily ?ignored), or if they insist on being the SS equivalent of two people shouting at one another in the middle of a crowded parking lot, it doesn't seem to be interfering with their right to free speech too much to arrest them for disturbing the peace.

Those sorts of solutions, which sidestep moderating specific content, are the kind that are easiest to enforce. If you say certain things can not be said, suddenly moderation becomes extremely difficult and you get into all sorts of gray areas, which is a debate currently happening across all social media.