Let's discuss changes that could be made to the base for after TWL

[Jonas]

Originally posted by Stabwound
Hey, now there is a cool fucking idea. 8 ships... 8 people per team. Coincidence? I think not. Let's do basing with 1 of each ship. It would be awesome.

With the current settings it would be quite boring. It's been tried several times. Granted not in leagues, but in ?go base and the likes.

Originally posted by Zerzera
Anyway to me cramming is just a stage, where lining last year seemed to be the perfect strategy, now it is cramming.

Originally posted by Verthanthi
1. Lines are easier to break. No one is going to argue with that, I hope.

Not neccessarily true at all. It all depends on what lineup you're using.

Originally posted by Verthanthi
2. Lines score less. Again, no one is going to argue with me. Why is this important? Well, because less points are scored on defense, the defense (team that owned flag right before) is much more concerned with flagroom battles. Also, if two teams are evenly matched in flag, but one is much better at entrance defense, it lets the worse entrance team stay in the game a little longer.

True, but the importance is way overrated. You only need more points than your opponent. If you're defending the flagroom fine by lining, there's absolutely no reason why you should try to push out into a cram.

Originally posted by Verthanthi
4. Lines leave the attacking team in slightly better position.

May or may not be true, depending on what lineup the attacker is using. When cramming, your spiders are far more open for jav bombs and or spider bullets.

Originally posted by Jeansi
Limit sharks to 1. Cramming would be possible and one could even do 6 spids but it would be easy to break.

Cramming is virtually impossible with 1 shark. When your shark die, you'll have to fall back while you wait for it to come back. Even with 6 spiders, one jav could easily take out the entire defense with one bomb. It's been tried.

Originally posted by Sufficient
Explain what else sharks have to do in lining. They basically fulfill the same roles as cramming sharks: protect spids and terr by repping.

When you line, sharks can mine, you might argue that sharks can mine in crams aswell, but the difference is huge. In pure numbers, I'd say perhaps 30-40 kills for each shark. And before you start whining about teamkilling. Teamkilling does not occur that much if you have sharks that work well together, and when you have smart spiders who know when to back the fuck off.

Originally posted by Mattey
Bosshawk and sufficient you don't get what they are saying at all. It isn't about cram vs. line, it's basically cram vs. FR battles. Which one do you think is more fun?

I don't want to answer for Bosshawk or Sufficient, but I can tell you one thing. Cramming is hell of a lot more fun than a 30 minute flagroom battle. But that's just from one sharks point of view. When playing spider I don't really care. It's all killing.

Originally posted by Sufficient
Once again ... cramming does not eliminate fr battles ...

Cramming does however eliminate fights in lower base. (At least with a 5 spider lineup, things tend to be a bit different if you have a javelin or a warbird putting pressure on the attacking terrier)

Originally posted by Verthanthi
#1 Widen the entrance

Don't see how this will change much except making it easier to get in and out. Will make it easier to kill the cramming spiders, but I don't agree with the people who think this is a problem.

Originally posted by Verthanthi
#2: NEW MAP: Double ent

Impossible to defend with the given amount of ships and mines. Well, depending of course on how the entrances are made, but this would anyway lead to more flagroom battles, and I think more one-sided matches.

Originally posted by Verthanthi
#4 NEW MAP: Circle-style

Would change basing as we know it completely. I don't think this is a real solution to anything.

Originally posted by Verthanthi
#5 Multi flag

With only 2 flags yes. But what could you do with 3 or 4? Like ?go camelot, 50 points for each flag. Example: 1 flag in each "ear", one flag in the current spot and one in lower base. This would encourage pushing out into lower base, to keep all 4 flags.

Originally posted by Verthanthi
#6 Doors on the flag bar wing's

Would make things too random for my taste.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Jonas
Cramming does however eliminate fights in lower base. (At least with a 5 spider lineup, things tend to be a bit different if you have a javelin or a warbird putting pressure on the attacking terrier)
[/B]

Not true ... why does cram eliminate fights in mid and tunnel? It simply does not. It's up to the cramming team if they decide that they have enough time to go down and set up to guard the tunnel.

[Louis XV]

HAY U GUYS LETS CHANGE THE NAME OF THE ZONE TO TRENCH WARZ IT WILL BE AN IMPROVEMENT ON THE CURRENT ZONE BECAUSE UHH IT WILL HAVE A Z INSTEAD OF AN S OMGZ SOMEONE CALL PRIITK NOW!

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Louis XV
HAY U GUYS LETS CHANGE THE NAME OF THE ZONE TO TRENCH WARZ IT WILL BE AN IMPROVEMENT ON THE CURRENT ZONE BECAUSE UHH IT WILL HAVE A Z INSTEAD OF AN S OMGZ SOMEONE CALL PRIITK NOW!

I don't know his phone # ... do you?

Back on topic ... I think the most productive thing would be come up with basing map ideas that incoorperate the 4 areas of play (as stated in one of my posts before), but allow more options for wbs and javs / other ships. The 2 entrance into fr would be a good idea if implemented so that the two entrances are accessible (to both defenders and attacker), but far apart so that defenders have some way to defend.

[Jeansi]

Originally posted by Jonas

Cramming is virtually impossible with 1 shark. When your shark die, you'll have to fall back while you wait for it to come back. Even with 6 spiders, one jav could easily take out the entire defense with one bomb. It's been tried.

Excactly. It would end up like this and that is why I love it.
1. Spids in line
2. Shark attaches to terr and reps the spiders so they get in under the flag. Then it reps once moer and rushes into lower where is reps its last rep hoping to green one more.
3.Spiders retreat back to line to avoid javbomb and nme sharks go underflag to do their job.
Then it goes back to point 2 again.
I love it.
Thats why I would like to see sharks limited to 1.

And why else does the cram suck imo? I'ts very boring for the sharks. They practically cannot mine. They wait for a sec after attaching to get some nrg and wait for the co-shark to die. Then they move in, rep and die. Not that much fun is it?

[Fluffz]

give the weasel a thor and work on its settings
give the levi (smaller) emp bombs and let him attach
reduce the lanc damage and energy usage to 1/2 and allow him to fire faster

i dont see why there have to be 3 useless ships or why to limit spiders...

[Bosshawk]

Originally posted by Mattey
I know that you aren't trying to take credit for the cram. And I'll ignore the misuse of irony.

not a chance im not taking credit for the cram at all, i used to hate it actually....

but when we were in bohems playing squads and we ran a nice 5 spider line.....half the time it still didnt matter, terrs would just drop a high portal and lag through the line.....

we never started really feeling and being competitive until we started cramming, so we went out and recruited and trained to cram in order to be competitive....

as stated before, it should be up to the squads to dress whatever lineup they feel they can win with

if people say they can break a cram easily then there should be no issue here other then people who dont like to have to fight the cram

[Credit Account]

Haven't read all the thread & don't know if they are even feasible from a programming perspective but the following ideas occured to me(for base/twbd/twlb etc). They are also probably a little to extreme to be realistically implemented:

1. Timed Ship-Switches. Allow many ship switches but limit the time within ship-switches can be made like:1 switch per minute. With handy macros & 2 semi-intelligent captains this could maybe lead to a more varied and reactive game (or not). Possibly this would require maximum number of ships to be defined ie 2 javs max. Additionally you could have a limited amount of "special" switches... like a 3rd shark for 1min to break a deadlock in cram.

2. 2 Ters, voluntary or compulsary... i don't know. But I think 2 terriers could spice the game up and allow for very novel strategies (at least it would make basing a whole lot more complicated). These were tried in ?go base (dunno if it's still allowed) but i forget what the general consensus was.

Credit

[Jeansi]

I dont like the concept of having 2 terrs.

[Sufficient]

Originally posted by Credit Account
Haven't read all the thread & don't know if they are even feasible from a programming perspective but the following ideas occured to me(for base/twbd/twlb etc). They are also probably a little to extreme to be realistically implemented:

1. Timed Ship-Switches. Allow many ship switches but limit the time within ship-switches can be made like:1 switch per minute. With handy macros & 2 semi-intelligent captains this could maybe lead to a more varied and reactive game (or not). Possibly this would require maximum number of ships to be defined ie 2 javs max. Additionally you could have a limited amount of "special" switches... like a 3rd shark for 1min to break a deadlock in cram.

2. 2 Ters, voluntary or compulsary... i don't know. But I think 2 terriers could spice the game up and allow for very novel strategies (at least it would make basing a whole lot more complicated). These were tried in ?go base (dunno if it's still allowed) but i forget what the general consensus was.

Credit

First idea is really novel I think and could be implemented (but with some programming changes) ... dunno if that'd be complicated to do or not though

Both interesting ideas though ... and prob would make things fun.

[Stabwound]

Originally posted by Jeansi

And why else does the cram suck imo? I'ts very boring for the sharks. They practically cannot mine. They wait for a sec after attaching to get some nrg and wait for the co-shark to die. Then they move in, rep and die. Not that much fun is it?

I don't know your case, but I find it very fun and intense to be playing a twbd or twlb game and know that one single mistake on my part could lose the flag/game for my team. You are totally oversimplifying the role of a shark in a cram. And you can pretty easily mine. Maybe you haven't been involved with/watched 2 good sharks playing together in a good game.

[Sufficient]

I haven't heard a reply yet Rand.

[Fluffz]

unlike opening up the entrance and allow the spiders to get even better angels from up there i would suggest to remove one of the red blocks under the flag. why?
cram is pretty much skill vs skill. you can call it a step forward or a stepp backward whatever. but there is something quite unfair with it. you can not repel the defending team away.
neither the terr, the spiders nor the shark can be moved. usually if 2 sharks repel each other they both drift away shorter or further depending on their timing. but not in the cram case. the defending shark just chills around a second while the attacking team gets thrown back. not too fair is it?

this would not change too much since the attackers would still have to fight their way up but it could be the nerf you seek.

[Jeansi]

Both good ideas fluffz but they still have to be tested thoroughly before the real games begin. Too bad but no testing of settings/maps have been made in ?go base.

[ÆNIMA]

Tests have appeared in certain maps, but I've forgotten the names of them already.

The idea of removing the blocks above where the terr sits occured to me when I realized that a shark can still rep for a cram no matter how big the choke point is. If the cram stays together, the shark can rep for it...so the cram lives, and is able to still repel a force. With a bigger entrance, it just gives the cram more room to move around and shoot..just consider the radius of a shark's repel.

However if you kept the choke point, and removed the blocks above where the terr normally sits, it leaves the cram vulnerable. Vulnerable in that an attacking shark can make its way up to the entrance at least, and rep the defending terr higher into the base, leaving it far away from the cram. Taking more time for the cram to reorganize, and leaving time for the attacking team to enter.

But with those blocks removed, it also gives the opportunity for the cram to reorganize faster than normal regardless of where the terr is. So that may not have solved anything. It's worth looking at though.