Proposal-limit spawn deaths in dueling arena's

[Grasps]

You may of seen discussion in another thread about spawns and the interest to limit or remove them. Qan figured out an easy way to implement a timer that for 2-4 seconds, kills/deaths won't count when you're respawned.

The only foreseeable con at this time is that it most likely will throw off K/Ds when using F2 in games. If you've ever played in ?go duel, the way it handles spawns would be similar to this change.

We would like to begin testing this out immediately in the dueling arena's but due to Qan's heavy workload, we need some public interest to warrant putting the time into these changes.

Would this be something you are interested in trying out?

[Turban]

this solution unfortunately leaves room for potential abuse as you could in theory play extremely aggressive after spawning to try to kill someone right after the timer runs out. it would be extremely frustrating to deal with in a team setting.

i recall increasing the spawn radius in TWLD several seasons ago and had no one complain about spawn kills. however you don't want to increase the spawn radius too much as it can lead into players spawning on the top (or bottom) edges of the map which are generally seen as safe areas by the players. it's not a perfect solution, but honestly the only other alternative that would work is having the bot warp you in a safe location which sadly is not that easy to implement.

in my opinion spawn kills are not a major issue, but it's definitely a shit feeling to spawn on top of a bullet (which happens maybe once every hundred games).

[Rab]

The timer isn't why there's very little spawning in go duel.
Said it before, I'll say it 1 last time - where you spawn and where you fight must be different locations.

[BIET]

That's somewhat similar to the anti spawn system in pub. Kills, from both sides in this case, aren't counted till 5(?) seconds after spawning. It does create discrepancies between F2 score and !stats score, but it's pub. So no one really cares and/or notices it.

In earlier discussions we've looked at using player positions to get spots to more reliably spawn players to. One major issue is that those positions are only sent reliably during certain events such as deaths, and maybe also while shooting when in radar view of the bot. How this would work is that the normal spawn would be a safety zone somewhere on the map, after spawning there the player would be warped, almost instantly, to a safe spot on the field. The safety zone is there to catch any bot/player lag that would delay the warp to a safe spot.

Maybe instead of relying on positions, that may or may not be up to date, the bot could be used to replace the standard spawn circle. It could be a rectangular box for each team, a single big one, or any other 2D shape imaginable. This would still leave the issue of spawning near other players, but it would be a lot more difficult to take control over the spawn area if there were two separate ones for example. Also, players wouldn't be stranded on the edges if set up correctly. And maybe the most important one, it should be fairly easy to set up.

[Grasps]

this solution unfortunately leaves room for potential abuse as you could in theory play extremely aggressive after spawning to try to kill someone right after the timer runs out.

I tried to make this proposal as concise as possible leaving out filler though in hindsight I should of explained how it works a little better. If someone is spawned and they are killed or kill someone within the timer--both don't get counted against.

This eliminates the potential to abuse the timer. We'd still need to test it out but if I were to guess, I'd imagine the timer would be relatively short ie. 2 seconds. Just for enough time to move into a position that you are ready to either fly away from or engage. And if you are spawned into the middle of your enemies, killing one or being killed won't count for either you or the killer. Hopefully that clears it up some for you.

That's somewhat similar to the anti spawn system in pub. Kills, from both sides in this case, aren't counted till 5(?) seconds after spawning. It does create discrepancies between F2 score and !stats score, but it's pub. So no one really cares and/or notices it.

In earlier discussions we've looked at using player positions to get spots to more reliably spawn players to. One major issue is that those positions are only sent reliably during certain events such as deaths, and maybe also while shooting when in radar view of the bot. How this would work is that the normal spawn would be a safety zone somewhere on the map, after spawning there the player would be warped, almost instantly, to a safe spot on the field. The safety zone is there to catch any bot/player lag that would delay the warp to a safe spot.

Maybe instead of relying on positions, that may or may not be up to date, the bot could be used to replace the standard spawn circle. It could be a rectangular box for each team, a single big one, or any other 2D shape imaginable. This would still leave the issue of spawning near other players, but it would be a lot more difficult to take control over the spawn area if there were two separate ones for example. Also, players wouldn't be stranded on the edges if set up correctly. And maybe the most important one, it should be fairly easy to set up.

This is pretty interesting BIET I understand the gist of what you are talking about with us having to spawn in sight of the bot for the bot to ensure proper placement but find myself fuzzy on when you say "It could be a rectangular box for each team, a single big one, or any other 2D shape imaginable. This would still leave the issue of spawning near other players, but it would be a lot more difficult to take control over the spawn area if there were two separate ones for example."

Regardless, it might be something worth experimenting with if it isn't too hard to implement. Ideally, it would be nice to find a solution that doesn't require much work or change the gameplay too drastically. Your idea might fit that bill but I still am having trouble understanding what you mean with each team having spawn boxes (or circles, triangles, ect.) and having difficulty controlling them? I feel like I need a visual here lol Thanks for the input though, something to think about.

[BIET]

Currently there is a circular spawn area that's defined in the arena settings. Within that area you have an equal chance to spawn on any spot within the area. Both teams spawn in the same area since freq are randomized and thus can't be set for each freq in the arena settings. With the bot you could bypass those restrictions and create new spawn areas, like the rectangular ones I mentioned. For example, the whole right half of the map could be a spawn area for team 1, while team 2 spawns on the left side.

And when I mentioned control, I meant that one team would basically camp in the middle, thus having somewhat of an advantage in picking off players who just spawned. Split spawn areas might even increase the effect, who knows.

[qan]

I'd thought about the left/right issue as a possible thing to try, but it would change how the game plays a small bit.

To do that, we'd set even and odd spawns differently via spawn settings, slightly right and slightly left. They would overlap a good bit, like a Venn diagram. It would mean that players would be more likely to spawn near allies and less likely to spawn near enemies. From the bot side, all that would need to happen is to make sure team 1 is assigned an even freq and team 2 is assigned an odd one.

[Rab]

where you spawn and where you fight should be different places...

[qan]

Yes, you'd posted that before, Rab, but without any clear plan about how that should be implemented. (Your implication being that it's someone else's responsibility to work out the details? If so, let me assure you, it's not.) There's a solution worked out for Javs that's served us well. Nobody's ever come up with a reasonable solution of that kind for WBs, but you could certainly be the one to do so.

[Rab]

it's the responsibility of whoever cares enough about getting it changed to put the effort in, which isn't me.
just pointing out the obvious so you don't waste your valuable time making changes that don't address the issue.

[Nipple Nibbler]

This might be an awful idea but...

What about stealing the idea from javelin arenas and combining this with left/right spawns...

Team A spawns on left side of the map.
Team B spawns on right side of the map.
You have x amount of seconds to move towards the middle of the map.
Have a do not cross line on left and right sides of the map similar to base in JD, players sitting in spawn area or crossing over it after leaving it, or taking too long to leave it, gain +1 death.

You could even place a giant wall on the line, with gaps to fly through, preventing MOST strays from spawnkilling.

This might require making the map a bit wider to compensate for not being able to use the sides.

[Grasps]

This might be an awful idea but...

What about stealing the idea from javelin arenas and combining this with left/right spawns...

Team A spawns on left side of the map.
Team B spawns on right side of the map.
You have x amount of seconds to move towards the middle of the map.
Have a do not cross line on left and right sides of the map similar to base in JD, players sitting in spawn area or crossing over it after leaving it, or taking too long to leave it, gain +1 death.

You could even place a giant wall on the line, with gaps to fly through, preventing MOST strays from spawnkilling.

This might require making the map a bit wider to compensate for not being able to use the sides.

Hey RR! Thanks for your input. I've pondered that very scenario for years and years and haven't found a way for that to work without drastically changing how warbird matches would feel and play.

What I enjoy most about warbird matches is the intensity of games, fighting for control of area's whether mid, bottom or one of the sides. If we were to remove players entirely to warping to one side, it takes that away.

Worse, when a match becomes lopsided due to someone dying out, teams could in theory camp enemy teams spawn point abusing that mechanic.

All in all, I just don't think it would achieve what we are trying to do in a way that doesn't completely change warbird matches. I see too many con's in that type of scenario.

This is why ideally, we could find something like what is proposed here or similar that will minimally impact on how games are played right now. I want the same feeling of current warbird games just without spawning/respawn kills and am hoping with input like yours and others along with testing, we can find something suitable!

[Rab]

In RR's scenario there wouldn't be spawn camping because the spawns are far apart the defending team would be able to trade for a numbers advantage and the attacking team would wipe. The advantage would be having the fighting occur nearer to your own safe so your reinforcements arrive faster than your opponents reinforcements. Cutting off reinforcements is viable today by pushing the enemy team to the outside edge.

[Poseidon]

you could green players SHIELD and ENERGY DEPLETE as soon as they spawn

after 1 second, shield is gone and they are greeend FULL CHARGE

this eliminates both being spawned and killing people u spawn next to while otherwise having negligible effect on how the game is played

alternatively... the bot could simlply not count kills or deaths on or by a player for 1 second after they spawn

[Zeebu]

spawn in an enclosed area far outside the map. each team gets one on opposite ends of the arena. allow an attach. improve antiwarp so the spawn zones are just barely outside of the range. add +1 death if you sit in the spawn zone for longer than a second or two.

this is a terrible idea btw. dont do this.


another option is to have some graphics at various locations around the map identifying smaller spawn zones. have like 8 of them or something. you randomly go to any one of them.


another is to have team specific spawn zones but instead of having a singular zone have a few so that an enemy couldnt camp them all


all of these options are pretty terrible, i still think we should do none of them.



imo the best options are to keep it as is or embiggen the spawn zone a little to grab more of the arena. you may spawn and get spawned from time to time but typically it wont change the outcome of a match. the squad more on point that game typically wins.