Poll: Roster Limit

[Noah]

2) disoblige, no disrespect, how many roster spots you need? 50? 75? 100? 200? give us a number

No disrespect taken. We set a limit of 45 players 3-4 months ago and we're going to keep to that limit. In the past days I've told 10-15 players that we're full on a daily basis, even though they could have been useful to us. The only exceptions would be some old Disobligers coming back when we already have 45, I'm not axing anyone to create a spot, and I'm not going to not take care of the veterans.

As a three league squad we end up with lots of players that only really can play one league really well. We probably only have like ~10 real warbirds on squad, ~7-8 real javs and then around ~25 basers. Which is alot less than how many players a one league squad can have. We lose quite alot of jds because we rarely have a line of full javs on to play, so people like myself who has never really javed before fucks up the jd and goes 0-10. If we had more javs I could let myself sit in spec and watch our real javs rape everything to pieces.

I can understand the point of this roster cap to prevent a squad like Giant Tiger or whatever they were called, but honestly you don't need to have strict rules for that. Just use common sense when someone grows that large.

Edit: I forgot to mention that part where we have to maintain activity for both the Euro population on the squad and the Americans. It isn't really possible to run Disoblige as a mostly Euro only squad anymore, which forces us to take in even more players. We're still going to keep to the 45 player cap we decided on though, from there on we'll just have to replace inactive people instead of creating more spots if we need more activity for the late-night Americans.

[saetep]

2) disoblige, no disrespect, how many roster spots you need? 50? 75? 100? 200? give us a number.

when you have a game (tw only) which averages to around 200 players a day, you need a limit

It's not as if our entire roster logs on all at the same time making it 40/200 people online. Out of the entire population of TW we probably have 20 or so as our max (about 3 lines of chat, which is the most I've seen) at any given time. We usually have around 10-15 on during weekdays. It's usually the same people. Me, turb, creat, disp, dep, quarts, and a few others. I don't really know where you got an average of 200 from either. I would've said 250, probably closer to 300 people for an average night. So 15 people out of 250 is not a lot. But I understand where you're coming from.

Edit: Also, having looked at how many games we have played (33, only savanger is close with 32) and the fact that we play all 3 leagues our roster size isn't that large. 43 on roster as a 3 league squad while some 1-league squads with MUCH less games than we do have over 30. Just a thought.

[Draft]

1) TUTORIAL for twd, yessss. it took me a good month to learn how to change arenas, even though i got in twdd after 3 weeks, i couldn't figure out how to get in, how to get on a squad roster etc (maybe because there are no tutorials?)

2) disoblige, no disrespect, how many roster spots you need? 50? 75? 100? 200? give us a number.

when you have a game (tw only) which averages to around 200 players a day, you need a limit

i agree 40 might be a little tight for a roster cap such as diso, but while you have your 'veterans' jumping into this game for a day/p month, other squads such as gianttiger/paxin use to have rosters over 75, over 100

[kthx]

It's been open for two weeks or something, every trash pubber that some pro limit moron like deth de fire can convince to login and vote just negates a vote from someone is actually useful to the game in some way.

[Arobas+]

Distension was a mistake (from my point of view as a player), but it's the past.

I accept your choice, but maybe we don't see things the same. My idea was really a compromise. A lot of arguments against the limit was about losing our inactive players, my idea fix that and it's not complicated, really it's not. Now, the only argument left is the one from noah : "With fewer spots on the roster we can give less spots to players that can't play in multiple leagues.".
But I fail to see the problem, those players will anyway join a squad. And THIS, is not a big problem.

And it's not like the poll was 20-80, it's pretty tight atm, 50-50.

[kthx]

Like I said don't take it the wrong way, you have done so much really cool shit for this game it is unbelievable. Trenchwars really has a ranking system that is better than most games even on Xbox Live or Ps3 online, it is really really good work.

But at the same time this game has a history of people who try to fix things in the game that don't need to be fixed. And generally they end up getting their way and making the change and pissing off a ton of our players before getting bitched out enough where they finally concede to getting rid of the idea.

I mean, Distension for instance was a good idea in theory, but it became a huge monstrosity that pissed off nearly the entire TWL crowd and TWD crowd because it would crash the game 10 times a day, and people wouldn't see reason that the game should stop being hosted, be hosted less, and not be hosted before TWL. So I am not really saying fuck you as much as I am trying to make sure bad ideas don't happen to the game before the bad idea pisses off a majority of the playerbase. And before the bad idea gets a following and a leader in staff backing it that refuses to see reason when the idea is proven to be disastrous for the zone. Because it is much harder removing a shitty idea than it is pushing a shitty idea into the zone, don't ask me why. Someone has to watch the watchers.

[Arobas+]

Now Arobas I realize you are good at coding but stick to coding, don't try to be like Maverick or Qan and try to fix the game, you are the best damn web dev this zone has ever had, but you haven't captained a squad for 5 years, played this game for 10 years, been staff for five years or done much else with this zone.

Wow.. way to stay polite with me, but you screwed everything after. Can I say fuck yourself? I think I can, it's only the forum. But just for your information, I've been around since 2000, and 2001 with Arobas+ but I don't really care what you think. Btw, it's not because I code things, that it means that I want to change TW because I can. It was just an idea.

[kthx]

I think that it won't work because you will see a huge dropoff of people playing twd.

Pretty sure thats the same reason why we can say fuck on the forums now also.

Why do you think these bad ideas are going to do anything but be another black eye to TW staff then you have another thing coming.

Now Arobas I realize you are good at coding but stick to coding, don't try to be like Maverick or Qan and try to fix the game, you are the best damn web dev this zone has ever had, but you haven't captained a squad for 5 years, played this game for 10 years, been staff for five years or done much else with this zone. You can sit here and make ideas on how the change would work in your eyes but take it from someone who has played this game for a very very long time, that isn't how the players in this zone are. All your going to do is piss them off by trying to force something on them, its going to backfire, people are going to sit here and criticize your idea on the forums for the next six months until you change it back (including me). Now, I don't want you to be the next Qan, Arobas+ so please stop trying to do stupid shit in game that is going to be bad for the zone.

[Stayon]

If TW staff truly wants to get a more active core for TWD, why is there STILL no proper tutorial/introduction for new players as they enter the zone for the first time? EVERY game has a tutorial, which besides the gameplay should be here to explain the goals/possibilities of the zone. Maybe in the past there weren't as much free MMOGs. But right now when a new player enters our zone, doesn't get the point within 5 minutes, he'll just give up and download the next free game.
So shouldn't you PERHAPS start with trying to KEEP the newcomers in the game, instead of telling old guys who've been playing the game well up to 10 years of their lives: get active or get lost.

this.

Just a reminder, when I started in Dec02, I took around 2 weeks to learn the commands and find out that there were more arenas then the random pub I was thrown in, if I were to start today in 2010, the same thing would happen.

[Dethdefire]

What arguments are left for voting in favor of a TWD limit again?

If anyone honestly still believes forcing captains to axe 10-15 inactives, will make these inactives feel forced to suddenly join/create other squads or get active again, I think you should've realized by now how wrong you are?
Simple logic: they'll just stop playing completely if logging on a few times a month to play with their friends has become a huge hassle, we're talking about people who've started playing around 2000 when they were between 12-18 year old and are now well in their twenties. We've busy lives, but still like to play the game with our friends on occasions. Isn't that what TWD was meant to be for, casual league play?

Also 'it doesn't hurt to try' is NOT an argument. if you can't even bring up 1 realistic positive expectation of what could happen, why even bother making a change like this?

If TW staff truly wants to get a more active core for TWD, why is there STILL no proper tutorial/introduction for new players as they enter the zone for the first time? EVERY game has a tutorial, which besides the gameplay should be here to explain the goals/possibilities of the zone. Maybe in the past there weren't as much free MMOGs. But right now when a new player enters our zone, doesn't get the point within 5 minutes, he'll just give up and download the next free game.
So shouldn't you PERHAPS start with trying to KEEP the newcomers in the game, instead of telling old guys who've been playing the game well up to 10 years of their lives: get active or get lost.

I don't really know who Witness is, but he should wisen up and consider listening to those who've actually managed to keep squads around competitively for 3+ years instead of to the 100+ people who voted without a reason or those who've never managed to stay on/lead a squad for over a year (like dethdefire)..

Not sure why I bothered typin all that

I created and ran DragonGuard for four years. Thanks for the comment tho..

[Dethdefire]

I don't have to go away from my point in this thread at same time I am calling you a hypocrite. It's also relevant to point this out when the decision to make this a public poll because people like you really have no place in a discussion like this at all. This is a matter for people who know what they talk about, and not some mundane things about personal preference.

I also like how you spend your entire post on justifying being on a large squad, with the exception of one sentence. You say that it is irrelevant to your posts instead of actually addressing what I said. It is hardly irrelevant to your posts when you tried to argue that squads actually would drop active people in the post I replied to. It's a direct reply to what you said. You just say that it's irrelevant because you can't argue against it.

You have yet to respond to a single argument for why the cap won't work from everything you have posted so far. You ignore those arguments and just continue to repeat the claims. I'm not going to waste more time on you because you clearly have no intention to actually respond to arguments.

There is no use in arguing over the exact same thing over and over. You being thick headed, overly argumentative and egotistical hardly constitutes me ignoring those arguments. I already argued my point and I have touched based on every comment that you made. My argument regarding your slandering me was completely justifiable and correct. It is apparent to me that you will continue to interpret my comments the way that you choose to interpret them, rather than how they are said. I fail to see how you being a captain of a squad for 1 week makes your opinion any more valuable than a player, like myself, that created a squad from scratch and ran it for four years. At any rate, arguing with ignorance is quite annoying and pointless. We both have our opinions. I respectfully disagree with yours.

[Dethdefire]

I totally agree with you Noah, but I see it differently. You don't need 50 players to 3-leagues. By having a limited roster, players will have more chance to play 3-league, and they will get better.. in long term it means more competition because players will get better. Now, 30 players is still a lot (if 30 is the limit), you can still keep your "vet-inactive" players if you really want them to stay around, 2-3 players on a roster of 30 is really nothing.

Another solution is to create a special status for those who don't want to be kicked immediately if a limit is applied. But as soon as they leave the squad, they will lose this status. If a player is willing to quit TW just because he got kicked from his squad, it's because he's kind of a vet who don't care much about the game now. Now, this idea should fix this problem for all them. They will still be able to play TWD games with this status. Let's say you have 50 players and the limit is applied. You will have to choose X players as your "main" players where X is the limit for a roster. All the rest will get the special status. They will be "immune" and kicking them will have no consequence. If the team is full and someone wants to join, you will have to kick someone from your "main" roster. It doesn't require any change in the bots, only the web interface. It would be easy to implement this.

What do you think?

I think that this is a great idea and should resolve any disputes.

[Noah]

Bram is quite right when he is saying that you can't even come with a single argument for why this could be good that isn't flawed in some way. I know for a fact that this is going to be damaging to Disoblige without giving the zone ANYTHING good in return. This is something that I, as a captain of the squad, knows because I know how this squad works. Nobody here can argue that we might be better off with this because none of you who wants the roster cap are actually leading a squad that wants to go three leagues.

This is going to damage the zone and this has to get stopped. Listen to those who actually has experience in leading squads like megaman and wark. You should not implent something that is going to drive off the vets we really want to keep playing.

Arobas how can you argue that a smaller roster will give people more chances to play three league? As stated before only the inactive people will be taken off, which will change absolutely nothing for the better. Letting people play in three league squads gives them experienced players around them in all leagues so they can get help to improve in whatever league they want. With fewer spots on the roster we can give less spots to players that can't play in multiple leagues.

You're going to way it WAY harder for a three league squad to be successful, and the successful three league squads has always had a good effect on the zone.

Edit: Just saw a page 4. Arobas your solution isn't a good one because the entire thing is pointless and unnecessary. Why create complications to TWD that won't have any positive effects? I guess I'd rather have your solution if you are going to force this on us, but then again that is irrelevant because I am with Wark on this one. If staff touches our roster you'll not see Disoblige playing in TWD. There are more squads than just Quicksand and Disoblige who will go along with this.

[Arobas+]

What about my idea? I would like to see someone commenting on it.

[kthx]

Well since mods let this poll run for weeks on end until they got what they wanted this is what I am going to do if you decide to do this.


As a captain of Quicksand and second place in TWLD this season I am going to be recruiting lots of players, until the squad hopefully has 50 or more playerson it.

I am not going to axe any of these players no matter how much you whine about it.

If any staffer decides they are going to fuck with my roster and manually axe people without my permission which they will not get, you can consider one of the leagues premier TWLD squads and one of the most active TWDD squads of last season to be completely inactive until the changes are reversed.

I know I am not the only squad that will do this either, you have been warned to NOT fuck with the game.