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  • #61
    Originally posted by RageRitual View Post
    TWL is for high * playes
    DT without * cap will again be for high * players.

    If the only events you host are for high * players, we lose mid * players that are trying to get better but never get to play.

    You nerds always say "get good" well not everyone has the potential to be a 10* player. We have a small playerbase, we should be finding ways to include as many people as possible in events. ESPECIALLY right after TWL which is only for high * players.
    TWL, yes. TWDT without star cap, no. TWDT is all about balancing and picking the right players. Eliminate the star cap and you will have a much fairer playground and no battle to get the most understarred players on your team. This means the people who deserve it are included, and yes this would still mean 6*, and I mean real 6* and not some under valued returning vet labeled as 6*, will miss out on playing but I personally think that's fair. We can't support a system that lets people intentionally sandbag for a period of time to get a lower star value, to then dominate the star slot in DT.

    Removing the star cap should put the emphasis back on getting the best team you can get instead of just focussing on getting the most broken 7*. The amount of players getting played shouldn't change, and removing the "fear" of getting stuck in the bottom of a star bucket and thus becoming unplayable.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by BIET View Post

      TWL, yes. TWDT without star cap, no. TWDT is all about balancing and picking the right players. Eliminate the star cap and you will have a much fairer playground and no battle to get the most understarred players on your team. This means the people who deserve it are included, and yes this would still mean 6*, and I mean real 6* and not some under valued returning vet labeled as 6*, will miss out on playing but I personally think that's fair. We can't support a system that lets people intentionally sandbag for a period of time to get a lower star value, to then dominate the star slot in DT.

      Removing the star cap should put the emphasis back on getting the best team you can get instead of just focussing on getting the most broken 7*. The amount of players getting played shouldn't change, and removing the "fear" of getting stuck in the bottom of a star bucket and thus becoming unplayable.
      exactly this iron survivor maybe I misunderstood you, but we have been talking about a no * cap draft so all the best players would play :P

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      • #63
        You guys just messed up on the timing a bit! Next year do it so it falls in January/February. Because after being cooped up in the house all winter. You will be dammed if you catch me sitting on a computer game on a 70° Sunday or even at all.See ya fellaz in November or a rain day here and there <3 ps. Fk u mouse u dumb cunt!

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        • #64
          You remove the star cap in TWDT and you will have league stacking that you can't control. We don't have the population to support this. Before we could counter stacking with stacking, but where are you going to get these players to stack from? First team to get a few high stars in TWDT no star cap wins. Also, you could easily stack 2 leagues and make playoffs. These are all bad for leagues imo.
          1:waven> u challenge
          1:waven> if i challenge it looks too scary

          Originally posted by MHz
          Hope you contract ebola from your, no doubt cheap, Easter Egg, you fucking shit-jav, pug-faced cunt.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Tiny View Post
            You remove the star cap in TWDT and you will have league stacking that you can't control. We don't have the population to support this. Before we could counter stacking with stacking, but where are you going to get these players to stack from? First team to get a few high stars in TWDT no star cap wins. Also, you could easily stack 2 leagues and make playoffs. These are all bad for leagues imo.
            Please tell me how you would do that in a scenario where every single team tries to do the exact same thing? Yes, the first few picks will be impactful since we have a limited quantity of ease's, turban's and saiyan's, but they alone don't make a team. I still think no cap is better than having teams with broken star ratings, like an 8.5* siaxis, an 8* banzi, or sprackle. Players shouldn't get motivated to play in another ship just because they got a favorable star rating.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by BIET View Post

              Please tell me how you would do that in a scenario where every single team tries to do the exact same thing? Yes, the first few picks will be impactful since we have a limited quantity of ease's, turban's and saiyan's, but they alone don't make a team. I still think no cap is better than having teams with broken star ratings, like an 8.5* siaxis, an 8* banzi, or sprackle. Players shouldn't get motivated to play in another ship just because they got a favorable star rating.
              <3 <3
              TWLD 2016 Champion
              TWDTD champion x 3
              Potenza 4 LIFE

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Tiny View Post
                You remove the star cap in TWDT and you will have league stacking that you can't control. We don't have the population to support this. Before we could counter stacking with stacking, but where are you going to get these players to stack from? First team to get a few high stars in TWDT no star cap wins. Also, you could easily stack 2 leagues and make playoffs. These are all bad for leagues imo.
                This is correct. Removing the star cap isn't anything that people seem to think it would be. That's because removing the cap only creates the illusion that there isn't a cap. In reality, there's still a star cap, but instead of it being set by the rules to create a level playing field across all teams, the star cap is set by whoever drafted the best players in one lineup. Maybe it would be 44* or 45* for that one team, but it's incredibly unlikely more than 1-2 other teams could get close to that number.

                Removing the star cap and ratings doesn't remove what those ratings represent, which is the gap in skill level between players. Whether you rate Turban in a league or not, he's still a 10* jav when compared to an 8* opposite of him, and there's a limited amount of Turbans to go around in 2021. Every team can't have one, but it's still possible for a team with Turban to also have an Ease in an unlimited draft league. That compounds the issue for everyone else. If every team could have an Ease and Turban, we'd be closer to making that league something worth playing, but we don't, and we especially don't if we're including 8-10 teams like a traditional TWDT. The fantasy of a limitless TWDT with epic parity and 8-10 elite lineups going head to head every Sunday is just a misunderstanding on everyone's part. We don't have anything close to the talent needed in our player base to make that happen in a league that everyone signs up for.

                An unlimited star cap can only work in something like basing cup where there's only 4 teams and it's limited to one league. In that case, the talent gets distributed relatively equally and everyone gets to play a fairly even lineup against each other. Try doing that with 8-10 TWDT teams where you mix all 3 leagues, and you have probably the worst league of all time. The more teams you involve the worse it would get. An unlimited star cap league would essentially combine the worst traits of TWDT and TWL into one league. Please don't ever do it.
                PattheBat> steadman your name is literally "a mean std"

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Mythril View Post

                  This is correct. Removing the star cap isn't anything that people seem to think it would be. That's because removing the cap only creates the illusion that there isn't a cap. In reality, there's still a star cap, but instead of it being set by the rules to create a level playing field across all teams, the star cap is set by whoever drafted the best players in one lineup. Maybe it would be 44* or 45* for that one team, but it's incredibly unlikely more than 1-2 other teams could get close to that number.

                  Removing the star cap and ratings doesn't remove what those ratings represent, which is the gap in skill level between players. Whether you rate Turban in a league or not, he's still a 10* jav when compared to an 8* opposite of him, and there's a limited amount of Turbans to go around in 2021. Every team can't have one, but it's still possible for a team with Turban to also have an Ease in an unlimited draft league. That compounds the issue for everyone else. If every team could have an Ease and Turban, we'd be closer to making that league something worth playing, but we don't, and we especially don't if we're including 8-10 teams like a traditional TWDT. The fantasy of a limitless TWDT with epic parity and 8-10 elite lineups going head to head every Sunday is just a misunderstanding on everyone's part. We don't have anything close to the talent needed in our player base to make that happen in a league that everyone signs up for.

                  An unlimited star cap can only work in something like basing cup where there's only 4 teams and it's limited to one league. In that case, the talent gets distributed relatively equally and everyone gets to play a fairly even lineup against each other. Try doing that with 8-10 TWDT teams where you mix all 3 leagues, and you have probably the worst league of all time. The more teams you involve the worse it would get. An unlimited star cap league would essentially combine the worst traits of TWDT and TWL into one league. Please don't ever do it.
                  This is why leagues need to be seperated. That solves all the problems while making the complications of drafting a 3 league team gone. Worrying only about one league at a time is far, far, far easier for captains, which should hypothetically make people want to do it more than they currently have to be begged to do. As it stands, the same few people always cap TWDT every year. Time to change things up for once.

                  There may only be one 10* Turban, but who cares if the other teams draft the next best Jav available in a snake draft? Team 1 will get Turban, but Team 8 will possibly get two 9*s or a 9 and the best 8* available. By the time Team 1 drafts again, they will be at the mid to bottom-tier 8*s, then on and on it goes. They will all be players in the same ship, so there is no need to worry about who can play what other league besides the one they're best at. No need to sacrifice for one league to make another have a better chance to win. No need for people who care about that sacrificed league to be stuck on shit squads that drafted almost exclusively to win a different one the former player is not interested in.

                  Making TWDT seperate leagues in regards to drafting people removes all complications that make TWDT so stupid to begin with, since not enough people are even good at 3 leagues for all squads to be drafted as such. Even in TWL, there are only maybe 3 or (pushing it) 4 teams that are good in all 3 leagues, and that's with a very small roster limit. TWDT rosters are usually bigger, making the entire thing a watered down mess. It's time to stop that crap. Almost nobody in this game likes all 3 leagues equally anyway, and it's insane to me for anyone to expect players to show up for 3 leagues as it is. This was one of TWL's biggest problems. People don't seem to acknowledge who they are as players and instead pretend they are 3-leaguers, when there's only like 10 real 3-leaguers in the entire game worth mentioning.

                  Anyone that's played enough Wbduel or Javduel or Baseduel knows that the team that drafts first doesn't necessarily always have the best team at the end. What matters is who gets drafted after the first guy. Some people are good at putting together a team of 5 that compliment each other, while others are not. Almost nobody is good at doing it for all 3 leagues without sacrificing at least one of them. Stop wasting people's time with the 3-league nonsense and seperate TWDT leagues like it should have been done ages ago. No need for a star system at all at that point.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Iron View Post

                    More like you got stomped in twl, twdt (couple 1-10) and you cannot play in ur cheat resolution .. thats why you left.

                    more like you cried with beam about res caps so you wouldn't have to face me owning your ass on my regular res but even after res limits i still dominated your dumb broke brazilian head ass
                    https://twd.trenchwars.org/showgame/90112596

                    Retired after i dropped 24 kills and carry the team

                    wbduel Map Maker Legend

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Exalt View Post

                      This is why leagues need to be seperated. That solves all the problems while making the complications of drafting a 3 league team gone. Worrying only about one league at a time is far, far, far easier for captains, which should hypothetically make people want to do it more than they currently have to be begged to do. As it stands, the same few people always cap TWDT every year. Time to change things up for once.

                      There may only be one 10* Turban, but who cares if the other teams draft the next best Jav available in a snake draft? Team 1 will get Turban, but Team 8 will possibly get two 9*s or a 9 and the best 8* available. By the time Team 1 drafts again, they will be at the mid to bottom-tier 8*s, then on and on it goes. They will all be players in the same ship, so there is no need to worry about who can play what other league besides the one they're best at. No need to sacrifice for one league to make another have a better chance to win. No need for people who care about that sacrificed league to be stuck on shit squads that drafted almost exclusively to win a different one the former player is not interested in.

                      Making TWDT seperate leagues in regards to drafting people removes all complications that make TWDT so stupid to begin with, since not enough people are even good at 3 leagues for all squads to be drafted as such. Even in TWL, there are only maybe 3 or (pushing it) 4 teams that are good in all 3 leagues, and that's with a very small roster limit. TWDT rosters are usually bigger, making the entire thing a watered down mess. It's time to stop that crap. Almost nobody in this game likes all 3 leagues equally anyway, and it's insane to me for anyone to expect players to show up for 3 leagues as it is. This was one of TWL's biggest problems. People don't seem to acknowledge who they are as players and instead pretend they are 3-leaguers, when there's only like 10 real 3-leaguers in the entire game worth mentioning.

                      Anyone that's played enough Wbduel or Javduel or Baseduel knows that the team that drafts first doesn't necessarily always have the best team at the end. What matters is who gets drafted after the first guy. Some people are good at putting together a team of 5 that compliment each other, while others are not. Almost nobody is good at doing it for all 3 leagues without sacrificing at least one of them. Stop wasting people's time with the 3-league nonsense and seperate TWDT leagues like it should have been done ages ago. No need for a star system at all at that point.
                      Yeah, separating leagues would make it better, but you're still not getting the parity and giving everyone a reasonably equal chance of winning each league they signed up to play. Everything has unintended consequences. Even with a separation of leagues, there aren't 8 10*s, 8 9*s, 16 8*s and 8 7*s in each league to cleanly and evenly distribute in a draft. More likely, you get some lineups with 44*, some with 41*, and others with 42*. A 3* disparity between a lineup is significant enough to make competing in and winning a league mostly meaningless. And still, you're only catering to the best players in the league, which is a far cry from the all-inclusive nature that TWDT has tried to promote since forever, and I think, should continue to promote. That's its best quality.

                      The perfect league in this game doesn't exist. We're wasting time trying to think of one. A high level of competition, all inclusiveness, parity for everyone - these things are all tied together. Pull one lever to crank up one of those variables and another one will hit the floor.

                      This is my point in all of this - you can't run a league without the primary concern being about parity. Parity is a non-negotiable if you want a league where being the champion of it means anything at all. But even once you have parity in the league, that's when you have to decide which elements you're sacrificing in order to promote the others. You don't get to have everything.

                      TWL and TWDT have different kinds of parity, but it's always still there, which is why the leagues work and why we play them. They simply cater to different parts of the player base. TWDT has parity across every single team in the league which is governed by a maximum star cap. That's a remarkable thing. Every team in the league has a chance to win, but the tradeoff is we have to reduce the quality of competition to make that happen. TWL also has parity, but it makes the opposite trade. We crank competitiveness to the max at the expense of inclusiveness for everyone. But in the playoffs, the top squads are reasonably equal and the winners are determined by who plays the best when the championship is on the line, not by who got to stack harder, because there's still a "cap" on stacking in TWL. You can only add 5 players in TWLD, 5 players in TWLJ, and 8 players in TWLB.

                      Neither league is perfect. Both leagues can be improved upon. I'm just saying if you're going to change something, do it with good ideas that actually solve what isn't working instead of making sweeping changes that make other things worse as a result.
                      PattheBat> steadman your name is literally "a mean std"

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                      • #71
                        2 major issues:


                        WB/Jav

                        1) the * scaling breaks down around 6* and the players at the level constantly go 3-10 and ruin dueling leagues for high star players. You'd have to average 17 kills a game to have a 50% chance to win. the low-low stars are ruining the game for everyone.

                        Base

                        2) low * spids/sharks have immense trouble breaking cram, it's really boring/depressing/not fun. Current map is fine for TWLB, but for TWDT-B it would make more sense to nerf cram (low * terrs are also overpowered due to this.)

                        Cape suggested a much more radical version of this, but I think if you keep the exact same map but remove 1 or 2 blocks from cram, it would make TWDT-B much better:

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	9t6WDoA.png Views:	0 Size:	26.4 KB ID:	1353447
                        You could make a light change (1 block removed), or a more drastic one (2 blocks removed.)

                        If you can fix the 6*s in dueling leagues and the cram in base, the Star Cap TWDT system would be much better and there'd be less demand to go back to no cap or star slots.



                        Edit: Potential Solution to 6*s ruining the game in warbird and javelin:

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	0jHdmIF.png Views:	0 Size:	9.9 KB ID:	1353448

                        25* (or 26*) star cap for your first 3 players (any 6* put in is counted as a 7*, so you can't 10/9/6)

                        Your 4th player is an 8-Star Slot (play anyone 8* or below)
                        Your 5th player is a 7-Star Slot (play anyone 7* or below)
                        Last edited by Claushouse; 04-08-2021, 11:39 PM.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Claushouse View Post
                          2 major issues:


                          WB/Jav

                          1) the * scaling breaks down around 6* and the players at the level constantly go 3-10 and ruin dueling leagues for high star players. You'd have to average 17 kills a game to have a 50% chance to win. the low-low stars are ruining the game for everyone.

                          Base

                          2) low * spids/sharks have immense trouble breaking cram, it's really boring/depressing/not fun. Current map is fine for TWLB, but for TWDT-B it would make more sense to nerf cram (low * terrs are also overpowered due to this.)

                          Cape suggested a much more radical version of this, but I think if you keep the exact same map but remove 1 or 2 blocks from cram, it would make TWDT-B much better:

                          Click image for larger version Name:	9t6WDoA.png Views:	0 Size:	26.4 KB ID:	1353447
                          You could make a light change (1 block removed), or a more drastic one (2 blocks removed.)

                          If you can fix the 6*s in dueling leagues and the cram in base, the Star Cap TWDT system would be much better and there'd be less demand to go back to no cap or star slots.



                          Edit: Potential Solution to 6*s ruining the game in warbird and javelin:

                          Click image for larger version Name:	0jHdmIF.png Views:	0 Size:	9.9 KB ID:	1353448

                          25* (or 26*) star cap for your first 3 players (any 6* put in is counted as a 7*, so you can't 10/9/6)

                          Your 4th player is an 8-Star Slot (play anyone 8* or below)
                          Your 5th player is a 7-Star Slot (play anyone 7* or below)
                          U dont want 6 stars, but you are lowering the cap 25+15 is less than 41 which is now...

                          And once again i say that having a 6 Star isnt the problem, but who and why we give 6 stars.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            I dont get how the current DT format is being touted as all inclusive when in reality it really isn't for some of us (least since Ive been playing in 2016) I've only been a starter twice, once when I capped my own team and once for DW's Terrorist. Lots of time on the bench..goddamn.

                            Kind of feel like we should do something for people who repeatedly signup and constantly get benched. I think of guys like Clay who suck at everything but had a perfect showrates. Why do we shit on Clay? We should be working with him and trying to mold him into a competitive player, instead we throw guys like him to the side. Just one example, I see it a lot in DT tho. Lower skill players show up and are eager to learn, eager to play and he just trash on these guys. We need to love on them. We've lost a lot of them lately and am sure it can be felt. I don't play anymore so I don't know numbers but I'd imagine they're down, least in warbird gaming.

                            I think this game needs more inclusion. I feel like if someone shows up to play they should be able regardless of their skillset. I want everyone to enjoy 2Dspace.

                            And that's why I quit lol

                            PS:got wicked high, so am a bit rambling but what if people who don't get played because of the fact they suck ass, the following season they can be a 0 * that way captains are more tempted to play them? It also gives us a FULL season to evaluate whether someone is legit worth lowering to a 0. If it was on the fly or done even before a season begins, we could have guys purposely do bad to get that rating.

                            I'd say honestly, a 0 rating should only go to people who've never been rated over like 7.5 before in DT (which would remove most/all guys wanting to cause trouble). This is just for the little people to have a chance at becoming playable for their team.
                            Last edited by Grasps; 04-09-2021, 08:48 AM.

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                            • #74
                              Some possible changes that would look good to me:



                              -Only one game from each division per week. Players are complaining about long seasons so each team will only meet once per division during the season.

                              -Notes for each base ship, to offer more flexibility for captains, as the new system offers compared to the old one already.

                              -An all-star game at the end of the regular season, each player having played the past week can vote a starter set for each division he has played, cannot vote for a player on his team, then forms the teams through the standings, then honor the MVP of each division with a medal. For once, victory matters less than individual performance.

                              -Lots of other things that I don't want to develop (I can't anyway) like a manager's game like Ardour did or an automated betting system.

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                              • #75
                                One issue with having the leagues community run leagues is that solutions aren't being built for lower-skill players, because leagues players are focused on making it maximally enjoyable for existing leagues players.

                                "Git gud" isn't an option for most people with families and lives in 2021, so we have a huge untapped potential in our recruits from other zones and more casual players. As we ignore them, we lose them.

                                Instead, these players could enjoy themselves and improve their skills if playing against one another in a concurrent tiered league. That also takes pressure off to include them in higher-tier play, improving the quality of games for vets. And it incentivizes lower-skill players to get good enough to finally be able to make the big leagues while giving them meaningful play in the lower. There's no downside other than extra logistics.
                                "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
                                -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

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