Does anyone feel like the thrill of returning to TW is kinda fading?

[Exalt]

2 major issues:


WB/Jav

1) the * scaling breaks down around 6* and the players at the level constantly go 3-10 and ruin dueling leagues for high star players. You'd have to average 17 kills a game to have a 50% chance to win. the low-low stars are ruining the game for everyone.

This is something I don't personally care about tbh. 6*s that go 3-10 is just part of the game, and frankly, anyone that doesn't join stacked squads all the time already regularly plays with one or more 3-10 players every single game in TWD and TWL. I don't think I've ever seen a single Rocket round where someone didn't die out with a 3-10 within the 5 minute mark. You get used to it after a while. Expecting people to be consistent or to at least stay alive rather than dying out first with their 3-10 is just never going to happen for most players outside of the 9*+ group. There's a reason those guys are rated so high, and it's almost entirely due to consistency.

[Grasps]

One issue with having the leagues community run leagues is that solutions aren't being built for lower-skill players, because leagues players are focused on making it maximally enjoyable for existing leagues players.

"Git gud" isn't an option for most people with families and lives in 2021, so we have a huge untapped potential in our recruits from other zones and more casual players. As we ignore them, we lose them.

Instead, these players could enjoy themselves and improve their skills if playing against one another in a concurrent tiered league. That also takes pressure off to include them in higher-tier play, improving the quality of games for vets. And it incentivizes lower-skill players to get good enough to finally be able to make the big leagues while giving them meaningful play in the lower. There's no downside other than extra logistics.

I think this is the direction I'd like discussions for leagues moving forward. Having tiers for High, Medium and Low players or maybe just High/Med-High players and Medium/Low players compete in their respective divisions. This would eliminate people from quitting due to stacking and really, should give everyone who wants to play an opportunity while not removing or severely compromising the integrity or meaningfulness for being an outstanding, top ranked player.

The more I think about it the more I like it. Hopefully we can start building the next league from that perspective as I think we'll see the most success doing it that way. Of course, we still need to do away with Sundays and get games on nights we already play like Friday/Saturday. Do this and man, skys the limit. I know I'll have no issues getting on at night after a long day to play this, would be dope. Praying it's the case!

[olde]

I didnt put much thought into it, Not sure if anyone would be a fan of this, but if you want to keep the game alive and keep players active, give them a reason to log on.

You use the idea of LOWERING the star cap in WB/JAV leagues keep base the same. That way the high star players get spread out more evenly, and you really have to draft accordingly to what you want to win as a cap. This could create 2 more teams, with the theory of 10*/9* good 8*'s being more spread out and able to carry. Tw never really had an issue with the amount of players signing up. Just never enough high stars to carry 12 teams and be competitive with the current *cap But with a lower star cap it could work.

At the end of the day this league is made to boost activity and keep people interested. So your goal would be achieved.

Maybe Claushouse or Tiny could do some fine tuning to this idea and make it work. But it is definitely better then the no star cap idea people keep throwing around.

[ogron]

One issue with having the leagues community run leagues is that solutions aren't being built for lower-skill players, because leagues players are focused on making it maximally enjoyable for existing leagues players.

"Git gud" isn't an option for most people with families and lives in 2021, so we have a huge untapped potential in our recruits from other zones and more casual players. As we ignore them, we lose them.

It's easy to virtue signal from the peanut gallery about inclusivity when you never play leagues.

The only people who win TWL are, for the most part, 9*s and 10*s. TWDT expands that massively to 10*s, 9*s, 8*s, 7*s, and occasionally 6*s (formerly 5*s, due to ratings inflation).

Have you actually had multiple seasons in a row ruined losing game after game because of a 6* (again, a 5* from 2010-2018)? And watching the team that wins have the one broken 6* who was misrated? No, you just tut-tut from the bleachers with no skin in the game. It's not fun.

I ran leagues and had 5* and 6* star slots, mandating the inclusion of this tier of players. Legitimate efforts were made. It was a genuinely awful experience. We bumped it up to 6* and 7* (by today's standards, 7* and 8*) and the league was much more fun. Those players don't belong in TWDT.

TWL: 10*, 9* (can win)
TWL: everyone (can participate)
TWDT: 10*, 9*, 8*, 7*
TWD: everyone
TSL: everyone
Elim: everyone
Pub: everyone
Events: everyone

There is a reasonable expectation that players use TWD and Elim to get to 7* to be viable in TWDT. Nobody wants to say it in forums because you get nasty responses calling you an elitist, but if you play TWDT you know that is the lowest level of skill that allows you to have fun and be competitive.

7* and above is not elitist. It represents the majority of the zone. There is a reason League of Legends created a fucking IRON TIER below bronze. There is a percentage of the population, unfortunately, that are just simply not viable in a team setting and harm the fun for everyone else. Forcing them into DT is stupid. I learned that the hard way trying to do just that over my first 2 years running TWDT.

Players below 7* can pretty much play in every league except TWDT. Wolf and others can just create their own squads for TWL (they just won't win).

Also, your statement that we're losing new players by excluding them from leagues is based on absolutely nothing. We've repeatedly catered to new players and most leave anyway. If you actually played this game you would know retention of skilled, veteran players has a much more positive impact on zone activity. Skill correlates highly with retention. People who are good at things are more likely to continue doing them. All the talented EGers have made their way into TWL starting lineups within months. They don't need handholding. Bad players catered to quit anyway and move onto different games.

[qan]

I ran leagues and had 5* and 6* star slots, mandating the inclusion of this tier of players. Legitimate efforts were made. It was a genuinely awful experience. We bumped it up to 6* and 7* (by today's standards, 7* and 8*) and the league was much more fun. Those players don't belong in TWDT.

I agree that they don't belong in current TWDT games. Including people for the sake of inclusion is just trying to force it to make it work, and takes down the quality of top-level competition.

There are quite literally no competitive leagues for players 6* or less. TWD is only competitive in the barest sense of the word, on a game-to-game basis. Meanwhile, the integrity of TWL is undermined by the presence of lower-skill players. (It's not much fun for anyone, and it's arguably a mistake to include them just for the sake of inclusivity.) TSL doesn't run, Elim's not a league, Pub is rarely competitive, and ... events?


Meanwhile, even among current DT players, a 6* rating applies a surprisingly large percentage of the time:
D: 14%
J: 16.8%
B: 13.5%

And 6.5* and below applies to an extremely substantial part of the existing DT playerbase:
D: 25.5%
J: 36.8%
B: 22.7%

Note that this includes only players who actually signed up, and not those who might want to play but don't see why they should bother.

Were we to advertise a lower tier concurrent DT, perhaps separated by division as some people have been kicking around, I think we'd see an increase in the number of players actually willing to compete.


This isn't a new problem, and just saying "go play another game" is extremely callous and not at all constructive. Yes, of course, we can incorporate the very best of other zones, but that's a given. This isn't about them.

The solution isn't to force 6*s to be played, taking down the quality of existing games. We should still give them a place to play. What is the real harm in having an Iron Tier in TW?

[Exalt]

Were we to advertise a lower tier concurrent DT, perhaps separated by division as some people have been kicking around, I think we'd see an increase in the number of players actually willing to compete.


This isn't a new problem, and just saying "go play another game" is extremely callous and not at all constructive. Yes, of course, we can incorporate the very best of other zones, but that's a given. This isn't about them.

The solution isn't to force 6*s to be played, taking down the quality of existing games. We should still give them a place to play. What is the real harm in having an Iron Tier in TW?

I remember many years ago, I advocated to staff to allow a lower-tier TWL back when TWD had over 50 very active squads and thousands logged in at a time, and getting into TWL actually meant something. It was my attempt to make a league for 6* players, albiet this was before TWDT was a thing as far as I remember. I had plenty of feedback from lower-tier squads saying they wanted to do it, but staff at the time just didn't want to help. There was a time and place to allow an iron league in TW, and that was it. Nobody with any sort of power or prestige in this game cared to do it, so it fell through. That was the end of it, because like I said, nobody with any pull in this game gave a shit when it actually mattered.

At this point in the game's lifespan, there are not enough 6* players to even make a league for them to begin with. The vast majority of 6* players at this point are people who are 7*+ in a different ship. The true 6* in this game are more like 2* in reality. I won't name names, but anytime those TRUE 6* people play games, they will die out first, feed the enemy team, and overall are just a detriment to their teams in every single metric, both recorded and not. These are people that won't even team or understand how to team, draw shots into their teammates in wb, TK their teammates in jav, ram mines and tk their terr in base, etc. They are a net negative to the point where it's almost better to 4v5 or 7v8 than add them. I say this as someone that adds these people in TWD games all the time, because I feel bad. It really does ruin the game for everyone playing except the enemy player, who gets to mvp simply by virtue of hunting that feeding player.

If you can find enough true 6* players to make a league, I'd support it, but I frankly don't think you could both find enough active 6*s and manage to get them to care enough to join any sort of league dedicated to them. You'd have to scour pub for a long time and hope that those people even know how to change arenas to figure out there are leagues in the first place.

[Dreamwin]

I agree that they don't belong in current TWDT games. Including people for the sake of inclusion is just trying to force it to make it work, and takes down the quality of top-level competition.

There are quite literally no competitive leagues for players 6* or less. TWD is only competitive in the barest sense of the word, on a game-to-game basis. Meanwhile, the integrity of TWL is undermined by the presence of lower-skill players. (It's not much fun for anyone, and it's arguably a mistake to include them just for the sake of inclusivity.) TSL doesn't run, Elim's not a league, Pub is rarely competitive, and ... events?


Meanwhile, even among current DT players, a 6* rating applies a surprisingly large percentage of the time:
D: 14%
J: 16.8%
B: 13.5%

And 6.5* and below applies to an extremely substantial part of the existing DT playerbase:
D: 25.5%
J: 36.8%
B: 22.7%

Note that this includes only players who actually signed up, and not those who might want to play but don't see why they should bother.

Were we to advertise a lower tier concurrent DT, perhaps separated by division as some people have been kicking around, I think we'd see an increase in the number of players actually willing to compete.


This isn't a new problem, and just saying "go play another game" is extremely callous and not at all constructive. Yes, of course, we can incorporate the very best of other zones, but that's a given. This isn't about them.

The solution isn't to force 6*s to be played, taking down the quality of existing games. We should still give them a place to play. What is the real harm in having an Iron Tier in TW?

I dont know the right solution for the overall problem but just to give you some more perspective.. Large portion of those 6/6/6 rated players never show to any games or join chat, even if they are ?messaged.

That said, I've had some amazing 6*s in my DT teams and it would be sad to see them go. Great guys with good attitude usually get a shot to play once or twice. Even though it is not ideal to add 6* repetitively in competitive setup unless the 6* star is broken or ur line up of 4 other players are your best lineup and require 6* to be added.

[Attacks]

more like you cried with beam about res caps so you wouldn't have to face me owning your ass on my regular res but even after res limits i still dominated your dumb broke brazilian head ass

Please, you choked so bad in the finals of season 21 twl that you had to be subbed by a Jav, 24. You lost Dice that final. You only made twl roster because you were supplying Mythrils metric fuckton cannibis consumption so I hear.

[LeeRomeno]

At this point in the game's lifespan, there are not enough 6* players to even make a league for them to begin with. The vast majority of 6* players at this point are people who are 7*+ in a different ship. The true 6* in this game are more like 2* in reality. I won't name names, but anytime those TRUE 6* people play games, they will die out first, feed the enemy team, and overall are just a detriment to their teams in every single metric, both recorded and not. These are people that won't even team or understand how to team, draw shots into their teammates in wb, TK their teammates in jav, ram mines and tk their terr in base, etc. They are a net negative to the point where it's almost better to 4v5 or 7v8 than add them. I say this as someone that adds these people in TWD games all the time, because I feel bad. It really does ruin the game for everyone playing except the enemy player, who gets to mvp simply by virtue of hunting that feeding player.

Isnt the problem here that there are 6, 6,5* players who are actually worth the points, but as noone is rated below, bunch of ppl whos actual worth is 1-2* get same rating and need to be drafted as well and they are more of an hassle to team than bring any benefit?

[ronaldinho]

I do not see where the problem is? You don't want to play 6*, you don't play them, it's that simple. I haven't seen the slightest problem during the last TWDTs concerning the 6*, they play less than the others but that's normal. It's a fictitious problem that only serves to talk.

Regarding the desire of some players to surround themselves more often with players at their level, I think the perfect schedule would be to alternate TWL and TWDT, but it seems that some players do not like to play TWL more than once per year. So why not alternate TWL / TWDT classic / TWDT no-star cap / TWDT classic / TWL .. so on ..

TWDT no-star cap would be a kind of compromise between TWL and TWDT, no unplayable players (6*) but the teams are formed during a draft. Stronger teams but the level is unbalanced in each division, compared to the classic TWDT.

[FROZEN THRONE]

Ive used TWL as an opportunity to create a squad with buddies and play through the season with them. Been an awesome season for us thus far. The idea and format for TWDT is much more appealing to the masses as it creates sort of a salary cap type league. Ive enjoyed every league since coming back a year ago and would like to thank the people running them.

[RageRitual]

Here is an idea that might work, mashing some ideas together:

- remove * cap
- first 4 teams pick half the players signed up
- second 4 teams pick the rest
- tier 1 teams only play each other during season
- tier 2 teams only play each other during season

top 3 teams from tier 1 enter playoffs
top 1 team from tier 2 enter playoffs

You could also put in a max * cap for captains captaining low tier squads to prevent 10*s from racking in 30 kill games in wb/jav or 200 kill games in base, etc. There are usually many low * players that want to cap and this would give them a chance.

[FROZEN THRONE]

Getting tired of the elitist's of tw, who yes, are clearly better than the rest of us. No contribution to the zone staying alive (logging in only every sunday) and then before matches are telling teams like accuracy, juice, wolf etc. how shit we are and a waste of their time it is. We could have 3 squads dissolve or maybe 20-25 players leave the zone and the entire thing would be dead. Just dont understand the idea of these people driving majority of the population and then will no longer have people to "wReCK" and "OWn"

[Efhat]

Getting tired of the elitist's of tw, who yes, are clearly better than the rest of us. No contribution to the zone staying alive (logging in only every sunday) and then before matches are telling teams like accuracy, juice, wolf etc. how shit we are and a waste of their time it is. We could have 3 squads dissolve or maybe 20-25 players leave the zone and the entire thing would be dead. Just dont understand the idea of these people driving majority of the population and then will no longer have people to "wReCK" and "OWn"

facts

[ronaldinho]

Getting tired of the elitist's of tw, who yes, are clearly better than the rest of us. No contribution to the zone staying alive (logging in only every sunday) and then before matches are telling teams like accuracy, juice, wolf etc. how shit we are and a waste of their time it is. We could have 3 squads dissolve or maybe 20-25 players leave the zone and the entire thing would be dead. Just dont understand the idea of these people driving majority of the population and then will no longer have people to "wReCK" and "OWn"

Ogron ?