Which cram should be in TWL?

[ogron]

https://forums.trenchwars.com/main/1...ap#post1331376

yes, you correctly predicted the issue in a 2019 thread, but in testing and most of the first TWDT-B season it didn't really crop up much.

the meta has shifted quite hard in the second TWDT-B season and TWBD, and now everyone is doing it.

i take the blame for the failure, as i pushed the wide cram map. i didn't predict the meta of stacking 2-3 spids on the strong side and firing straight down to basically delete the terr/sharks ability to impact cram break. in combination with spids sitting in corners of the cram, it's pretty awful now.

but the goal has always been the same: increase FlagRoom battles, because they're more fun, more interesting, and more skilled.

the wide cram doesn't do that. turban's map has a much higher probability of doing so, appeals to traditionalists as its the old map, and solves the problem of TWBD/TWLB/TWDT-B running at the same time and requiring 1 map.

[Vehicle]

Cram has been part of this game for nearly 20 years now (or more?). It seems silly to me to get rid of it now.

I agree the wide cram makes breaking cram far more reliant on spiders and in a way nerfs shark's impact. (Then again, I've never been good at bombing crams.) But it also led to way shorter crams in the last two DTs, even this latest one.

The only problem with the wide cram, in my opinion, is the corner camp. And that could be solved by moving the top-bar "notch" over 1 tile on either side while having very minimal impact otherwise. If there's going to be any changes, that'd be my preference at this point.

I'd like TWDT and TWL to stay as close to each other as possible. That means I'd like them to use the same map. And I think that map should be the wide cram.



P.S. I also agree that a forum poll to decide the issue is a bad idea. That's why I didn't make one. I just made a poll to give people who don't use certain spaces to communicate the option to give their opinion. Hence it saying "this is not official".

[Rab]

this was something not anticipated, and IMO is a dealbreaker. it doesn't make sense to remove 2 of the 3 ships out of the cram breaking equation. even less so in TWDT-B due to the star system.

https://forums.trenchwars.com/main/1...ap#post1331376

[ogron]

As for the maps...

Wide Cram

the wide cram had strong positive results early on, but players have adapted and it is now arguably worse, or similar but imbalanced. sharks and terrs have been devalued with the removal of the block, and can't really impact cram break as they can no longer get up the left/right side of entrance because the strong-side spiders now set up and fire straight down.

Standard Map


Wide Cram


this was something not anticipated, and IMO is a dealbreaker. it doesn't make sense to remove 2 of the 3 ships out of the cram breaking equation. even less so in TWDT-B due to the star system.

Anti-Camp Shot


this was anticipated, it was just the gains of opening up the cram and letting the breaking teams spiders be less accurate and hit more shots more than offset this, so it wasn't deemed a dealbreaker.

the problem is, in combination with multiple spiders shooting straight down on the strongside limiting the impact of the sharks/terr, it arguably makes cram-breaking worse now, or close to the old map, except now it devalues terrs and sharks to an absurd degree.

letting low-star spids just sit safely flush in the corner and fire an insanely powerful shot, then having your higher-star spids shoot straight down, move around, and stop sharks/terr from impacting cram break has removed all the early gains.



i think this map was a good attempt, but ultimately a failure.

Turban Map

turban's map is an elegant solution and solves these issues, AND solves a new problem:

TWLB and TWDT-B are running at the same time, and everyone will be practicing in TWBD. That means you need a standard map that works for all three.

turban has magically found a way to appeal to traditionalists who will fight tooth and nail to keep TWLB's map the same it's been for 12 years, while solving the TWDT-B cram issue on the same map (but with doors), and allowing for one standard map to practice in TWBD as it is the same map.



this is the old map, but in TWDT-B the doors open after 75 to 90 seconds of cramming, rewarding you for a tek, but limiting the amount of cram the winning side gets by opening the doors and allowing for much easier entry to return to the funnest and most skillful part of the game: FlagRoom battles.

this should appeal to purists and traditionalists, and basers who prefer map changes to promote FR fights and reduce cramming.

it still requires a lot of testing, but this would be the map i would support in TWDT-B. my preference is the old map for Basing Cup and TWLB as cramming hasn't been an issue the last few years, but I also think using turban's map would be fine -- just increase the 75 to 90 second door time to 4-5 minutes for TWL.

[ogron]

a poll for this issue is not a good idea for the following reasons:

1) breaking cram was not an issue in TWL 2021. nobody was able to hold a cram in playoffs.
2) forum users may not be basers
3) forum users may not be TWLB players
4) many TWLB players don't use forums
5) the latest map attempt for TWDT-B hasn't been tested yet.

also, most people put like 15 seconds of thought into the issue then vote. anyone actually working on maps is putting hours of thought into it. you're valuing a low-effort gut check the same as a well considered, expansive consideration of the issue.

the pool of players who understand cram break mechanics is fairly small. if it wasn't, cram break wouldn't be an issue in TWDT-B. the reason the map was changed only for TWDT-B is that it suffers from unique issues like low-star players who struggle to break cram, and different lineups featuring a different amount of stars in shark/spider/terr, leaving to even more problematic cram breaks (i.e., the team with less * in spiders will struggle to break cram.)

these issues don't exist in TWLB and Basing Cup.

[Vehicle]

Why would anyone want to go back to a cram that takes longer to break? Honest question. I’m by no means married to the current base, but cramming is the least fun part of basing. Change whatever, I just don’t understand going backwards though.

also you dropped duplicate polls and you’ve hidden who’s voted for what

The wide cram makes shark less fun regardless of which side of the cram I'm on. That's just me, though. I could see why spider-mains would want to keep the new cram.

[Zeebu]

Why would anyone want to go back to a cram that takes longer to break? Honest question. I’m by no means married to the current base, but cramming is the least fun part of basing. Change whatever, I just don’t understand going backwards though.

also you dropped duplicate polls and you’ve hidden who’s voted for what

[Rab]

I prefer that all basing arenas have the same map. The 3 existing maps have well understood problems, so I think it's time for a new map everywhere.

[Vehicle]

This isn't official.