Time race basing

[Mythrandir]

Here's another alternative for a way to run a basing game:

First team to hold the flag for X (10 in ?go base, 15 in twd/twl) minutes wins (much like ?go pointbase, except that every second counts, instead of one flag tick every 2(?) minutes)


Pros:

- unlike timed games and pointrace this cannot be exploited. Timed games can be exploited by running after achieving a set amount of points. Pointrace can be bothersome in ?go twbd in 5v5 games or when a squad decides to leave just 1 player in just to piss the other squad off.

- (personal one) This is the most 'purest' form of basing, the goal of the game is to guard the flag. Points and the amount of kills are secondary.

- Result of the above item is that cramming will be less effective. Cramming, compared to lining, is a bit more risky, but you can get way more kills from it. And since the amount of kills/points is secondary to the main goal, some squads may chose to use another style of playing.

- More diverse lineups. Spiders kick ass partially because they are great milkers in fr battles (and crams). When only keeping the base is important, squads would sooner choose for terrier killer ships, like the bird or the jav.



Cons:

- the rec (points / kills - deaths) of a ship will be less relevant. Obviously there will still be a MVP, and recs can be compared as much in time race as they can be in point race.

- on the other hand, milking can be fun and quite some top squads do it consciously. Although it adds to the challenge to kill the terrier asap.




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What do you guys think, is time race a system worth considering? Please reply only with constructive arguments / replies. Non constructive replies are:

- "Why change everything?" - nothing is being changed, we're only discussing it.

- "It sucks!" - please explain why


p.s. don't go ad hominem either.

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also, for each case that you make for or against this system, make sure to check if it doesn't apply to point race or timed games either.

[Stabwound]

Pro: Makes the games a lot more objective and fair than the regular 30 minute games. There will be no "running" or "hiding" in these types of games.

Pro: Gives you even more of a "come back at any time" chance than point race, because the other team gets absolutely NOTHING without the flag. In point race the other team can still rack up a lot of points without the flag, and can even get 8k instantly if they touch the flag when the bell goes off.

Pro: With point race, if you are playing a game that is less than 8v8 (say 6v6), it could take an extremely long time to reach the point goal. With the time race system, the games would never go over a set amount of time (say 30 minutes, if the goal was 15 minutes with the flag).

Pro: Would really make the game more fresh again. People could create brand new strategies.

Con: Assuming the bot isn't already created, it would delay TWL even farther to have this bot coded.

Con: Makes any past achievements meaningless. Kill records, point records, etc, from the past, wouldn't matter anymore.

Con: It's an even bigger change to the game than the point race is. It changes the focus of the game away from killing as much as possible, to defending the flag at all costs.

I'll come up with a few more in a bit.

[Mythrandir]

Just a couple of comments on 2 cons:

Con: Makes any past achievements meaningless. Kill records, point records, etc, from the past, wouldn't matter anymore.

note that this is also the case for point race.

Con: Assuming the bot isn't already created, it would delay TWL even farther to have this bot coded.

yes that's a con if we would want to implement it. But not a con to the system itself.



Good points though, I didn't think of the 'come back at any time' thing, that's indeed a good thing.

[Adman]

Basing is about points though, always has, and it should remain that way.

I personally think, getting points is a lot more fun than just sitting guarding the flag.

[bloodzombie]

This is the best idea yet.

With the old system, it as often better for the terr to just die and try attacking again if they were deadlocked at the base enterance or cornered in fr. with this system, every second counts, so when you're flying up from lower, you're losing time, so it's extra important for your terr to stay alive.

warbirds have already grown in popularity lately, and this style of scoring would make that an even bigger basing ship, and would also increase the value of a good jav.

[Desperate]

I think this sounds like a very interesting idea. It should be tried in ?go base, maybe sometimes when this TWL has started, I don't wanna delay it any further. It could be tried out in TWL Season 8, if people like it.

[bloodzombie]

I personally think, getting points is a lot more fun than just sitting guarding the flag.

You were guarding the flag before anyway... you had to in order to get your points, this is just a little different way to measure the score.

[Force of Nature]

Just a couple of comments on 2 cons:

yes that's a con if we would want to implement it. But not a con to the system itself.

For all you people who don't know about bots ignore this part just read the end.

Thats a lie myth and you know it. Have an internal timer in the bot by the timer class which calculates the game time. Have two variables team1 time and team2 time.

All you need to do is keep track of the FlagClaimed packet. If it is claimed by the differnt team. Start counting. When it switches add the time to the respective team's time.

Keep another variable to end game which calculates the time needed for the current team holding the flag to win. Say team one just changed flag again and the status is such.

team1time = 14 mins
team2time = 10 mins.
currentflagposition = team1

This is calculated and timer started
variable to win (target - 15 mins) - team1time = 1 min.

If the other team doesnt get it by 1 mins team1 wins. If it does the variable to win is calculated again since you need the flag to win. That way you don't need to check all the time.

Oh i just figured out how to do the current time dynamically. You only need to keep it updated while queiried. So when someone does !time then add the current timer with team who holds flag and update it. Then display updated results.


this is the end

I think given the pointrace bot's code it can be done in 2 days max (this is quite a conservative estimate - honestly i think its a couple of hours work but there are always hitches) having seen how the bots work. If you want details why read the above algorithm, if you don't understand dont complain!

Obviously this is a simplification which achieves the bot to work but some extra features can be added like telling the time status doing !time to the bot and such but thats just reading the variables.

[bloodzombie]

I'm pretty sure myth is just looking for opinions on the basing system, and that's what he meant. Not that he didn't know how to do it in the bot.

[Force of Nature]

I'm pretty sure myth is just looking for opinions on the basing system, and that's what he meant. Not that he didn't know how to do it in the bot.

no doubt, but my point is the time to implement the bot is a non issue

[Vehicle]

Pros:

- More diverse lineups. Spiders kick ass partially because they are great milkers in fr battles (and crams). When only keeping the base is important, squads would sooner choose for terrier killer ships, like the bird or the jav.

I disagree with this. By focusing the entire game on the flag and the terr(s), if anything, it will encourage traditional lineups. Teams will be more inclined to create lineups that can hold the base easier. By adding to the speciality ships, and taking away spiders, the flagroom will be harder to hold and the time the flag is held will go down. With this, squads will play more traditional lineups in an effort to keep the enemy team out of the flagroom (not just the enemy terr.)

I like the idea, but I think it might be a bit too drastic. In my opinion, the basing aspect of the game revolves around points. Some may argue it's more about the flag, but I feel the flag is a tool to gain more points. By taking the focus of basing away from the points and directing it more towards the flag, I don't know if I still think of it as basing.

Also, if you only need to hold a flag for 15 minutes, the maximum game time is only 30 minutes. Granted this is the amount of time typical TWLB games go for, but the odds of a game actually going for 30 minutes are slim to none. The average game would probably last 20-25 minutes, while in pointrace, it can go much much longer if the quality of basing is better.

Overall I like the idea, but I still prefer pointrace. It's a bit less drastic, and keeps the focus where I feel it belongs.

[Stabwound]

Also, if you only need to hold a flag for 15 minutes, the maximum game time is only 30 minutes. Granted this is the amount of time typical TWLB games go for, but the odds of a game actually going for 30 minutes are slim to none. The average game would probably last 20-25 minutes, while in pointrace, it can go much much longer if the quality of basing is better.

In ?go base races to 70k, total blowouts (where one team has the flag the entire game) last around 12 minutes. Using that as an example, a total blowout in TWLB (with 100k race) would last about 17 minutes. Not much longer than a blowout game in a Time Race to 15 minutes.

[Vehicle]

In ?go base races to 70k, total blowouts (where one team has the flag the entire game) last around 12 minutes. Using that as an example, a total blowout in TWLB (with 100k race) would last about 17 minutes. Not much longer than a blowout game in a Time Race to 15 minutes.

In a way that's my point. Using point race, good games, where the score is closer, will last a long time. In further apart games, the game will end faster. In my opinion, it's a win win situation. Whereas with standard basing and this new propsed method, it's a set amount of time where you could have 15 miutes of total suckage, or 20 minutes of good fun.

[Force of Nature]

In a way that's my point. Using point race, good games, where the score is closer, will last a long time. In further apart games, the game will end faster. In my opinion, it's a win win situation. Whereas with standard basing and this new propsed method, it's a set amount of time where you could have 15 miutes of total suckage, or 20 minutes of good fun.

I think you have misunderstood. Its quite exactly like pointrace only its implies time. A close game will go close to 30 mins if you actually have both teams in the flagroom having a flag touch war at the end. But it is set time.

[Blood]

this is actually a sweet ass idea. implement it straight away to TWLB is my opinion