TWLB Basing Changes -- My initial impressions

[ogron]

Terrier

Key Changes:

-No more interaction with greens
-Port granted every 2 minutes
-Burst granted every 1 minute

Only played one game, but my initial impression is that I liked it. I felt like it makes terrier a lot less horribly broken or "OH MY GOD WHY CAN'T I GET A PORT TO SAVE MY LIFE!" I think spiders will be thankful of that.

For me, it added way more strategy and complexity to the ship. I spent 40% of my mental energy on the burst timer trying to maximize my bursts, counting whether the enemy terr had a burst or not, and trying to exploit it. I dove Trasher a few times knowing he didn't have a burst when he bursted early in the 1 minute clock, and forced 1-2 warps, and got 1 tek doing it.

I spent a lot of time trying to do a double burst... waiting a til the clock struck 1, bursting, then bursting again... it ended up being really hard to do, because you need to use your bursts, and enemy terr bursting first puts you in a bad position... I only managed to do it twice in a 25 minutes. Didn't seem broke at all.

There's a big risk/reward of choosing to burst first or second. You burst first you can win the FR and their burst has less impact from a losing position, but if it doesn't you expose yourself to a dive and they know you don't have a burst.

If you want to chill and terr, this change is def a negative. If you want to add skill to the ship, this is definitely the way to go.

I played poorly trying to manage my burst clock too much, will take time to get used to.

I think this change is positive, and I support it.

9/10


Spider

Key Changes:

-No more greens
-No more FCs since no greens
-No more hunting for greens for yourself or your terr

I really hated it. It was boring, removed something special from the game, didn't reward big pushes, it was just boring. What I've heard so far is terrs like the terr changes, and spiders hate the spider changes. This was my experience.

It's not BIG change, but it feels like it is reducing complexity, while terr changes increase it. I had less fun than I usually do in spider.

I really hated it.

3/10


Conclusion

1) I think we should keep the terrier changes. They're positive and spiders seem to like it, too. You can also exploit enemy terrs, and you don't get triple bursted or triple ported like Houdini.

2) Bring back greens for spiders and sharks. PLEASE. Was boring as fuck. Just remove portal and burst from them. I'd get rid of FCs for terrs, too, I didn't notice an improvement. Just saves bad terrs more than good ones.

Then you get the best of both worlds.

I don't really shark, and there's a bug with shrap, so hard to comment.

[afghan]

I agree with this

[Rab]

Agree

[Majorcrisis2]

Oh jeez, the big egoron needs to make his own thread for his opinion instead of replying in the change thread.

For myself spider was no fun to play at all. Shark will be less fun. With terr you will see top and lower tier get farther apart. I dunno if thats good. I still like the surprise of not knowing when or if you have burst/port as terr.

[qan]

Quick and dirty analysis of greens and various effects. I'm just copying from a spreadsheet, formatting is bad.

Original config
Terr FC chance:		17.39
WB/Spid/Lanc FC chance:		26.09
Shark/Jav FC chance:		0
XRadar	50	8.7
MultiFire	255	44.35
Repel	100	17.39
Shrapnel	100	17.39
Burst	50	8.7
Portal	20	3.48
Total points	575

Shrap->Xradar, Burst/Port -> TopSpeed (Ogron's suggested model)
Terr FC chance:		0
WB/Spid/Lanc FC chance:		26.09
Shark/Jav FC chance:		0
XRadar	150	26.09
MultiFire	255	44.35
Repel	100	17.39
TopSpeed	70	12.17
Total points	575

Adding FC
Terr FC chance:		17.39
WB/Spid/Lanc FC chance:		26.09
Shark/Jav FC chance:		17.39
XRadar	50	8.7
MultiFire	255	44.35
Repel	100	17.39
TopSpeed	70	12.17
Full Charge	100	17.39
Total points	575

Shrap/Burst/Portal become TopSpeed
Terr FC chance:		0
WB/Spid/Lanc FC chance:		8.7
Shark/Jav FC chance:		0
XRadar	50	8.7
MultiFire	255	44.35
Repel	100	17.39
TopSpeed	170	29.57
Total points	575

All have various compromises, but if you're looking to actually remove FCs for Terrs, #2 works nicely, leaving FCs unaffected for fighter ships @ 26.09% drop chance, while removing shrap, port and burst.

[ogron]

Good idea Qan, thanks.

I can't speak for others, but in talking to people, it seems most players opinions are similar to mine. Not a lot of terrs to talk shop with, but Mikkiz felt the exact same way I did about the terrier changes.

I'd love to play some TWBD with the terrier changes, and your green changes, and see how people feel about it.

Additional notes:

1) The burst/port timer is off by 2 seconds. It greens at :02 and it is a reallllllllllllllly annoying problem (but an easy fix)

2) We need an overlay in the top/middle just below the energy bar, I think. At least to test. Something similar to the Kills/Deaths overlay in the bottom right you guys made.

IMO, I would do a 2 minute clock, and give us the option to turn it off in matchbot if someone would rather not have it. Looking top right while terring is AWFUL. It's a huge commitment in a tight game to spend 0.2 seconds turning your head, 1 second interpreting the game clock information, then 0.2 seconds turning your head. You're committing 1.4 seconds away from looking at your ship/the game in terrier in a tough FR battle, that's really awful. Even when looking at game time late in a 14-14 game before the port/burst clock, its awful. The text is super tiny, and you need to read which team you are then look at the times for both.

It's not a big deal for spiders/sharks who have tons of time on their frequent death timers, but terrs don't have that luxury. You're always alive (unless you're Heaven).

[ogron]

This is roughly how the game should look while basing:



A) The current game clocks on the right are HORRIBLE. The text is insanely tiny, the font is awful, AND you need to read the names of the squad above the timers to know which one is yours, and you always forget.

It should be a bigger font, without the fancy graphics around it, and your team's time should be GREEN, and the enemies time RED, so you save a huge amount of time not having to read which squad is which... you instantly know your team and the enemy team's time.

This should be a huge quality of life improvement

B) The Burst/Port timer should be a 2 minute loop so that when it hits 0, you know both terrs get a port. I would put it in the center top just below the energy bar, it is very very important, and it's important to all 3 ships. Spiders will quickly learn the value of knowing whether the enemy terr has a port/burst or not.

I found it annoying remembering on which minute the ports showed up (is it even or odd?) so basing on that is better... you know you're getting a burst every minute, so at 1:00 and 0:00

With this overlay in place, greens returned, and new terr settings, I think basing would be in great shape.

[Mikki<]

Looks good 8)

[qan]

From other thread (for completeness):
New green table is as follows: 75% chance for Multi, 25% for XRadar. Resulting changes: 26%->25% chance FC for Spid/WB/Lanc; 17%->0% chance FC for Terrs; 17%->0% chance repel for Sharks.

Those game clocks really do need updating. As resolutions have gone up and up, info that used to be quite readable now requires a magnifying glass to read. This is something that should be done across the board, anywhere a timer's used. Unfortunately it's a bit of a job, as it requires making it all work together nicely, and few people are both able and willing to do LVZ graphics work anymore. One pipe dream would be having the UI scale based on res...

If the burst/port timer stays and is populated out in the various leagues and ?go base, agree that we'll also definitely need a visual timer. This is the one probably most likely to actually get done in a reasonable amount of time. For simplicity, would only need to be a 1min timer, with some kind of indicator (a large dot would be enough ... or maybe better would be a stylized port symbol) to show that this is a burst+port tick, rather than burst only. It could also be just two digits, further simplifying the LVZ work, as 00 represents 1 minute left.

[ogron]

A 2:00 minute timer is 100x better, because the port is the one that is irregular. I don't want to look up at 0:42 and wonder if I'm getting a port of not... a 1:00 minute timer is bad, because you only get a port half the time.

A 2:00 timer means u consistently get a port at 0:00 every time, and burst at 1:00 and 0:00... it's super easy and intuitive, and as a terrier this is the system that is preferable. I get the all the information I need.

I look at for a split second, see its 1:07, i know I'm getting a port.

I look up and see 0:03, I know im getting a port/burst.

Easy, simple, elegant.

[qan]

Thus the mark indicating if the countdown includes a port or not. Every time it reaches 0 you'd get a burst. But if it reaches 0 with the very clearly visible port mark, you know you'll also get a port.

But, the advantage of using the 2m timer is that it's clearer exactly how long it'll be until your next port. For example, 1:47. I suppose in this instance a port mark would literally just representing "less than one minute," so it's conceptually the same, and no more dev work to put a 1 vs a mark (as 2:00 will never be displayed and so would not need to be in the package).

[ogron]

a 2:00 is full information. I only need to look up and i get the full information of what I'm getting.

If it's 1:02, I'm getting a burst in 2 seconds.

If its 0:07 I'm getting a port and burst.

---

A 1:00 requires me to absorb 2 pieces of information: the time tells me only about the burst, then i need to look at some port mark that has to be coded in, i now need to look at 2 things.

I know I'm always getting a burst at :02, the more important info is the portal, which is why making it 2:00 and the centrepiece the portal is better.

Also less dev work for you : )

[qan]

Yep, basically said that in my second paragraph, agreeing that overall a 2m timer is probably more readable and useful. Though might not have been the most clear... often on forums I'm writing at work when I get a spare minute and don't always phrase things as well as I could.

I'll make sure we're sticking with this change and everything is working as expected before starting on it, as well as making sure the leagues folks are on board, but all in all seems like a solid way to support the new mechanic.

[Rab]

If you do the green/red thing remember not to shaft red-green color blind people in the process.

[ogron]

If you do the green/red thing remember not to shaft red-green color blind people in the process.

Hey Rab,
As long as you know your team's time is always on the left or right, that should be fine for colorblind persons, no?

If it's consistent it shouldn't be an issue.

agreeing that overall a 2m timer is probably more readable and useful

Awesome, I look forward to seeing it in action.

Just as an aside, I haven't seen an elim Killrace recently, is the confidence removed from those for Season 9? Thanks!