The circle jerk which is TWD basing.

[Efhat]

I’ve joined plenty of weaker squads to try and help with the spread of talent the past few seasons just like I did with Spastic last TWL, Fierce, etc. and just like plenty of other players who have done it seasons before in the past. But according to faggot basing legend Lockdown, and TWL spider legend Mouse, my skills in basing aren’t to par since Spastic placed 5th last TWL and I play for myself in competitive life altering try Harding TWBD matches so my opinion is probably irrelevant.

Unfortunately there’s still cores that stack and stay together because their pride is worth more than anything else.

you also have emotional unstable people who play this game and people don’t want to be apart of the toxicity so they stay with their people.
Myself and others aren’t gonna log in on Sundays to deal with unstable idiots complain all day on how they’re right and how they don’t want to squad with you and blah blah blah blah.

it is what it is at this point.

[Omega Red]

I’ve joined plenty of weaker squads to try and help with the spread of talent the past few seasons just like I did with Spastic last TWL, Fierce, etc. and just like plenty of other players who have done it seasons before in the past. But according to faggot basing legend Lockdown, and TWL spider legend Mouse, my skills in basing aren’t to par since Spastic placed 5th last TWL and I play for myself in competitive life altering try Harding TWBD matches so my opinion is probably irrelevant.

Unfortunately there’s still cores that stack and stay together because their pride is worth more than anything else.

you also have emotional unstable people who play this game and people don’t want to be apart of the toxicity so they stay with their people.
Myself and others aren’t gonna log in on Sundays to deal with unstable idiots complain all day on how they’re right and how they don’t want to squad with you and blah blah blah blah.

it is what it is at this point.

That's a good point, there is a difference in how some players value their experience. Some value winning at all costs, and some value just having fun. There is no clear black and white cut between which player is which as in different times some players have moved in between these squads.

There is no solution to this really since you cannot demand equity in TWBD, the closest you get to that is TWDT since you are forced to play into a star constraint. Newer players have to either get good or join a squad that BDs regularly. Right now it is TWL time and everyone has their nerd hats on for medals. This is the time probably where this issue is most pronounced.

[Grasps]

Omega Red I don't think it's just that the bridge squads are dead. I think there is a subset of people who have grown so elitist that they are literally forcing players out of their community. A community that was already dying.

This.

I won't name names but a lot of top players shame others for having bad games, flat out refuse to play with players they don't deem 'elite' or refuse to borrow non 'elite' players. Some of them hold prestigious titles whether it's staff or otherwise stacking with other elite tier players and putting everyone else not in the small circle of egotistical highschool wannabe's out of luck. The amount of nepotism is daunting with such a small community such as ours yet it's here and we look the other way.

They don't care if people quit. In fact, a few weeks back one said elite squad sat and laughed at players quitting a TWDD match because they refused borrows to play 4v4 instead wanting to keep it 3v3. Basically they only had 3 squad mates on that were "elite" but didn't see anyone else worthy of pairing up with them thus didn't borrow anyone for 4's. It was a packed arena and when they were done, everyone left but this elite squad. They all laughed with each other and genuinely felt good about killing off the activity for TWDD that night and went off to another zone. Was pretty sick and I witnessed the entire thing unable to do anything about it.

Makes me sad how lame this game can get. TWL brings out the ugliest aspect of the community, though TWDT also has moments. All over a lil bitty pixel medal and bragging rights in one of Ogron's spreadsheets. About it. Always reminds me how afraid some of these elites are when you see them scramble to stack up the most elite rosters possible for easy shoe in wins that so long as you just show up you'll win. Like literally, a guy like RTAllen could win as a 5th with some of these stacked lines and probably do good because he has zero pressure on him and can take time to aim shots.

Why I respect vets like Skepsis or Iron Survivor that took a squad of nobodies and took them to TWL. Same can be said for Iron's Force and how that group did the same. What's better, is these dudes they beat up still won at the end of the day and ran most them off or they gave up and joined forces with them. There is next to no competition in 2021 for them and that's totally ok in their book. They just stack it up, crapping all over the casuals/scrubs. Reality is the real battle for glory and spreadsheets is to be only the top 3 teams and the rest won't have a chance.

Not much we can do. We can't force people to not be big fat pussies or stack. Or not be total douche bags to those they deem unworthy by not playing with them or refusing them borrows.

[ogron]

A small group of persons subjective experiences over a small sample size of 1-2 weeks may not reflect the overall experience of the majority of the player base over a larger sample size.

Vehicle and apt's frustrations across a fortnight may be valid, but accepting their feelings as an accurate reflection of reality and then replying to this thread as fact creates an echo chamber filled with recrimination, while being devoid of facts.

I looked at every player with over 95 games played in 2020 in spider. Here is the breakdown of games played by star level:



The data says 6*s and 7*s played 2000 more BDs than 9*s and 10*s.

Renzi, Spastic, and many other veterans have gone out of their way to include, borrow, and help newer players. EGers were BDing 20x a day on Team Jizz. Most of these players all received tons of playtime in TWDT-B, with a star cap system that has bent over backwards to cater to lower tiered players.

They all quit anyway. EGers got bored. 6*s like Panty, Scurvy, and Helly were constantly included and started in basing games and still left. Rentention level correlates strongly with talent level. That's why 90% of the zone has quit but 45% of the best basers to ever play are still here.

So 2020 was a record year for inclusion, with more TWBD games played than 2003, and low stars getting tons of exposure, an incredible 3 TWDT seasons that require newbie inclusion... and most of them still left anyway.

There are extensive resources for learning and excelling in base, like my comprehensive spidering guide, along with a2m and my sharking guide. I've trained over 60 new players in private arenas over the years, and there have been some nice successes, training Kando II in #twlb and starting him in BDs 5-6 years ago. He went on to become a TWLB champion in 2019 as Kado. But I mean ultimately he wanted it, and had the talent. He did 95% of the work. You can only do so much. Players either want to make the investment to improve or they don't. Terminator, for example, does. I worked with Terminator 17.5 and he's made tremendous progress in 2020 and went from being a 6* to a TWDT-B champion in 2021 and looks like he's probably an 8* now. Raiji, Azuline, and others have also made nice improvements.

There have been several hundred unique visitors to the guide, and I feel like the quality of spidering at the lower level has improved quite a bit and helped players become stronger basers.

The borrowing feature by staff has been a godsend to the game and probably been the biggest success in the game's history. There are tons of veterans who have gone out of their way to help newer players. There are now guides available. When I took over TWDT in 2014, there was 1 low star spot, regular season only. I doubled the amount of low-star spots, and made it mandatory for the playoffs. Then I tripled the amount. In base I quadrupled it. Then Mythril took over in 2019 and supercharged it with the Star Cap system.

Simply put, many of us have put thousands of hours into addressing these issues over the years.

Short of BIET or qan adding bots you can BD to improve and play whenever you want, I'm not sure much else can be done.

Many of us, for years, have asked who wants to be borrowed in blue then added whoever responds in chronological order. Most basers are fairly inclusive. You can cherry pick examples to make anyone look bad if you want, which is what this thread honestly feels like.

1. Every time s@@r has asked to be added, someone tried to add him only to realize he's not on TWD roster, and seems incapable of figuring out how to do it. There is nothing malicious going on.
2. Juice adds 7 newbies then expects a TWLB contender with four 10*s who beeped and are added to somehow make the game competitive. The game turns into a 15-1 joke and kills base. It might help if you borrowed 3-4 elite players and mixed them in with the players you're training
3. Caps generally aren't going to borrow newer players if their line is significantly worse, because they're trying to get a competitive, close, balanced, fun game and need to borrow veterans to achieve that goal
4. TWBD squads are allowed to play high-level games with 16 veterans in. It feels like there is a sense of entitlement that good players aren't allowed to play each other and practice for TWL. This rarely ever happens, yet this thread treats it like every bd is like this
5. There are often multiple caps adding and borrowing at the same time, and assistant captains simply adding themselves without regard for what the person who got the game intended in terms of lineup balance or borrows
6. The facts show that 6*s and 7*s were given ample playtime over the last 12 months, moreso than 9*s and 10*s

The reality is that veterans in this game have made a significant amount of efforts to help new basers. There is simply no solution to playing against players with thousands of games played over decades short of bots like League of Legends. The entire game, from TWDT-B star caps to borrows to guides to vets taking players under their wing, is skewed towards low-star players and it's still not enough. People who aren't really good at something simply aren't likely to continue doing it, especially against stronger players. And we've already pushed elite players to their limit, we had way too many 10*s and 9*s benching last year in TWDT-B. Those are the players who stick around at a much, much higher rate.

[Vehicle]

Did you control for the amount of 6/7*'s versus the amount of 9/10*s? I have a feeling that the giant difference in the number of players in each rating would effect your numbers.

S@@R is on Juice's roster so take that for what it is.

[viop11]

y wouldnt u call out the individuils who r doing wut u r saying? wuts the issue w/ callink efery1 out

[Vehicle]

viop11 Because when people feel attacked they are much less likely to hear you out.

I want to acknowledge that teams are 100% within their right to pick whomever, whenever. The reason I'm in this thread is not because I think there is something wrong with that. It's because as someone who has seen a lot of eras of this game, it is my opinion that the basing community is more insular and less welcoming than ever before.

[ogron]

Did you control for the amount of 6/7*'s versus the amount of 9/10*s? I have a feeling that the giant difference in the number of players in each rating would effect your numbers.

i don't understand what you're asking. perhaps you can clarify for me?

if i expand the dataset to include all 250 players who played 10 bds or more, it shifts the numbers even more in favor of low-stars:



6*s and 7*s accounted for 42% of all BDs played.

9*s and 10*s only accounted for 25%.

Here's a link to the raw data in google docs if you want to play around with it.

[Vehicle]

Claushouse I mean that there are fewer 9 and 10 star players than there are 6 and 7 star players. So I would like to see the numbers weighted in terms of how many players fall into each category. It might not support my argument but I think it would be a more accurate statistic for this conversation.

[zidane]

what are we even talking about here lol, lot of mediocre people play every single bd. i agree with what renzi was saying.. blowouts in bd are 0% fun and are completely miserable for both sides (moreso losing side) whereas in jd/dd you can get at least go for kills and have some fun.

it's always been hard to make squads, now more than ever with less of a population

[apt]

i don't understand what you're asking. perhaps you can clarify for me?

if i expand the dataset to include all 250 players who played 10 bds or more, it shifts the numbers even more in favor of low-stars:



6*s and 7*s accounted for 42% of all BDs played.

9*s and 10*s only accounted for 25%.

Here's a link to the raw data in google docs if you want to play around with it.

Mm, these numbers are cute, but all I can I know from anecdotal experience is that when I began playing at the end of September, most TWBD games were organized by ag$ and myself - and we picked everyone.

As of the last couple of months and more importantly the last few weeks, these numbers are most definitely not an accurate reflection and a superficial rating isn't an accurate reflection of people just picking their same elitist friends over and over.

Elitism extends beyond skillset, it's a social agreement and transaction.

[ogron]

Let's use that dataset instead:



The elite 9* and 10* players went from 25% of all BD playtime to 26%. (Dataset)

It seems like you're simply changing the definition of an elite player to something else when the evidence doesn't match your pre-conceived notion.

Most basers are willing to be accomodative to a reasonable degree with borrows and lineups if you pm them.

And like I previously said, you can't just add 7 newbies and challenge 8s... it's going to be a 15-1 stomp and teams are not going to want to play you. As zid and renzi said, stomps aren't fun for anyone. All it does is kill base and reduce activity.

If you borrow more strong players, and rotate in your newbies, you end up with 8 bds where you played 3 new players = 24 games played.
If you add 7 newbies and get stomped, you kill base or squads privately challenge to bypass you, and your new players = 7 games played.

Most teams can't play more than 2-3 new players because they have 5-6 beeps and they're not going to bench their whole team to accomodate you. Especially during TWL. In the first half of 2020, the ideal mix tended to be 5-6 veterans and 2-3 new players in an 8v8 match.

[apt]

Let's use that dataset instead:



The elite 9* and 10* players went from 25% of all BD playtime to 26%. (Dataset)

It seems like you're simply changing the definition of an elite player to something else when the evidence doesn't match your pre-conceived notion.

Most basers are willing to be accomodative to a reasonable degree with borrows and lineups if you pm them.

And like I previously said, you can't just add 7 newbies and challenge 8s... it's going to be a 15-1 stomp and teams are not going to want to play you. As zid and renzi said, stomps aren't fun for anyone. All it does is kill base and reduce activity.

If you borrow more strong players, and rotate in your newbies, you end up with 8 bds where you played 3 new players = 24 games played.
If you add 7 newbies and get stomped, you kill base or squads privately challenge to bypass you, and your new players = 7 games played.

Most teams can't play more than 2-3 new players because they have 5-6 beeps and they're not going to bench their whole team to accomodate you. Especially during TWL. In the first half of 2020, the ideal mix tended to be 5-6 veterans and 2-3 new players in an 8v8 match.

But you're not showing 2021.

EDIT: Also, I don't see how these superficial ratings have anything to do with people cancelling TWD games vs Juice or refusing to borrow players who aren't even ranked in TWDT because they are new.

This is super strawmanning to the maximum degree.

[Nipple Nibbler]

I don't do lines much these days, but when I do I try to balance the teams if I can. But like Ogron stated, when my team has 5-6 beeps I am not going to sit them so you can add 7 6* players. I will add the beeps then borrow whatever low star players are available. Also Like Ogron stated, you can't just put in 7 weak players. Maybe if there was a second low tier basing squad around it would help. You could reach out to warbird squads and play regular base matches against them, if they know they will be vsing a low tier squad they might actually want to play some base. Brainwave used to play vs ossify and wingmasters a lot back in the day when they were only wb squads. You could trade, "play us in bd and we play you in dd" that helps activity in both divisions if regularly done.

I have seen some people intentionally stack win 15-0 games and it only hurts the zone. Nobody enjoys getting slaughtered every game, and on the winning side it gets boring. This does still happen but I don't feel like it intentionally happens as much as this post makes it out to be.

[apt]

I don't do lines much these days, but when I do I try to balance the teams if I can. But like Ogron stated, when my team has 5-6 beeps I am not going to sit them so you can add 7 6* players. I will add the beeps then borrow whatever low star players are available. Also Like Ogron stated, you can't just put in 7 weak players. Maybe if there was a second low tier basing squad around it would help. You could reach out to warbird squads and play regular base matches against them, if they know they will be vsing a low tier squad they might actually want to play some base. Brainwave used to play vs ossify and wingmasters a lot back in the day when they were only wb squads. You could trade, "play us in bd and we play you in dd" that helps activity in both divisions if regularly done.

I have seen some people intentionally stack win 15-0 games and it only hurts the zone. Nobody enjoys getting slaughtered every game, and on the winning side it gets boring. This does still happen but I don't feel like it intentionally happens as much as this post makes it out to be.

yeah its messy and there's no easy way through it. but i can say since this thread, ppl have been more open to adding at least 1 new player if they have the slot for it.

if you have like 7 people on your squad and you want to vs a full squad, obv you wanna do the best you can and get the best you can, unless you have to skill balance.

but more in general, if we have like 3-6 players and need borrows, its good and friendly practice to keep this game we love alive, to just add newbies, even if it means a loss.

but thanks everyone