question about eligibility/squadhopping

[PjOtTeR]

if they both werent mods the penalties would be implaced already

I don't think it was their fault, but the fault of the twl ops.
If we just had a bot that could tell if one joined 7 days b4... we wouldn't have a problem with this at all.

[Epinephrine]

2dragons and I both officially left Venom (quit the TWD roster, joined the Pirates TWD roster) before round 3 was over.

As per rule 5.05, it explicitly states that:

5.05 The Standard Waiting Period for roster eligibility goes as follows: Any player joining a Squad for participation in Trench Wars League, will be subject to a one round cool down period after registration and confirmation by a Squad Captain. Players will not be eligible to participate in official Trench Wars League matches until the round proceeding that player joining the Squad has completed (Example: Players joining before round 3 but after round 2 will not be allowed to play in any games until the round 4 games).

Read what is written in bold. Round 3 was not complete. Therefore the round proceeding us joining Pirates was Round 3. No rule was broken. Just to make sure, we verified this with Rodge and Pure_Luck just in case we were actually breaking rules. They verified that this was okay (in case you think I had specific interferance with this in my role as the TWL Advisor) before we played. 2dragons sat out the Pirates TWLJ game because he participated in the TWLJ game the week before and just wanted to be completely sure that it was alright to play.

Rule 5.05 has been exactly the same since season 6. I wrote that rule I know exactly what it says, and what it's intention was. It has NEVER been enforced in a situation so that players were made to be ineligible if they joined during a round in progress. In fact the old check for the previous TWL bots (which were developed by 2d under my direction) was that eligibility was checked starting 6pm EST of the previous Sunday. If you joined a squad before that, then you were fine, after that then you were officially ineligible.

There were some players who fell under this in previous seasons, and no one complained. I guess 2d and I being staff members makes us targets. If you had a problem with the rules, I suggest very carefully reading all the rules BEFORE the season starts, so that they can be fixed. Before EVERY SINGLE TWL season there has been a few weeks (and sometimes months) of time for players to suggest rule problems whether it is because of a technical loophole (which this is NOT) or something they didn't agree with philosophically (which this IS) and changes were made by the TWL Ops accordingly.

Regardless the roster lock is tomorrow night (I believe) and I doubt this rule will have any more bearing whatsoever on the season.

Next time you have a problem with the rules, bring it up before the season starts, or else they will be enforced exactly to the letter of the rule. And yes if you think it's ambigious then bring that up too. P_L and Rodge both interpreted the rules in the way that it played out and I believe it was the correct decision.


EDIT: I just want to stress that these are my personal views, and are not the official views of the TWL Staff. As part of the decision affected me, I had nothing to do with making the call on what happened.

[Treachery]

Going to post this again so I can refer to it.

5.05 The Standard Waiting Period for roster eligibility goes as follows: Any player joining a Squad for participation in Trench Wars League, will be subject to a one round cool down period after registration and confirmation by a Squad Captain. Players will not be eligible to participate in official Trench Wars League matches until the round proceeding that player joining the Squad has completed (Example: Players joining before round 3 but after round 2 will not be allowed to play in any games until the round 4 games).

The main point of that rule is that there should be a one "round" (a round is a weekend, I don't see how this can be disputed) cool down period after changing squads. 2d played for venom in the previous round, switched teams and played the very next round (week) for pirates without any delay.

From what I've heard pirates did ask if 2d was eligible and somebody said he was. We aren't arguing whether or not pirates did this intentionally. What is being disputed is whether or not the rule was broken (intentional or not). From what I have just written here it should be evident that this rule was broken. Many people realize this.

In Lofty's log with Rodge, Rodge said that there was no punishment outlined in the rule so it's at the discression of a TWL Op(not quite sure exactly what he was saying though). TheTWL OP chose to do nothing. That's bs. If anything we should at least a rematch which would make this situation somewhat fair.

To the OPs: admit you guys(staff) messed up saying 2d could play that weekend and correct your mistake. It can be as easy as that.

EDIT - Didn't see Epi's post when writing my own: I still think that my bold statement which comes before Epi's is what is most important. I respect Epi as a person (he knows this), but I think in this case he is just defending a friend.

[Vihta]

I don't see what's wrong with playing for two different squads two weekends in a row, as long as you can't play for two different squads in the same weekend.

Indeed. People just wanna whine/bitch/moan about anything.

[Lofty]

Next time you have a problem with the rules, bring it up before the season starts, or else they will be enforced exactly to the letter of the rule. - Epinephrine

Sorry, but proceeding means the following round, not the current one. Therefore yes, I agree, TWL Op's should enforce exactly to the letter. I haven't seen that done thus far.

Edit:Also, I remember hearing from various sources that 2d left after games, but that's not the point - the point is Code has already stated that 2d left after the games ended. Therefore even if we were to pretend that my point wasn't legitimate about the rule wording, the rule should still be in effect even by the pseudo alternative standard.

[Treachery]

I agree with Bloodzombie and vihta. I really don't see a problem to joining on the friday before a weekend and playing that exact same weekend. But some people do and this rule was made trying to prevent exactly that. And becuase it's a rule, it should be enforced regardless.

[Burnt]

2dragons and I both officially left Venom (quit the TWD roster, joined the Pirates TWD roster) before round 3 was over.

As per rule 5.05, it explicitly states that:

5.05 The Standard Waiting Period for roster eligibility goes as follows: Any player joining a Squad for participation in Trench Wars League, will be subject to a one round cool down period after registration and confirmation by a Squad Captain. Players will not be eligible to participate in official Trench Wars League matches until the round proceeding that player joining the Squad has completed (Example: Players joining before round 3 but after round 2 will not be allowed to play in any games until the round 4 games).

Read what is written in bold. Round 3 was not complete. Therefore the round proceeding us joining Pirates was Round 3. No rule was broken. Just to make sure, we verified this with Rodge and Pure_Luck just in case we were actually breaking rules. They verified that this was okay (in case you think I had specific interferance with this in my role as the TWL Advisor) before we played. 2dragons sat out the Pirates TWLJ game because he participated in the TWLJ game the week before and just wanted to be completely sure that it was alright to play.

Rule 5.05 has been exactly the same since season 6. I wrote that rule I know exactly what it says, and what it's intention was. It has NEVER been enforced in a situation so that players were made to be ineligible if they joined during a round in progress. In fact the old check for the previous TWL bots (which were developed by 2d under my direction) was that eligibility was checked starting 6pm EST of the previous Sunday. If you joined a squad before that, then you were fine, after that then you were officially ineligible.

There were some players who fell under this in previous seasons, and no one complained. I guess 2d and I being staff members makes us targets. If you had a problem with the rules, I suggest very carefully reading all the rules BEFORE the season starts, so that they can be fixed. Before EVERY SINGLE TWL season there has been a few weeks (and sometimes months) of time for players to suggest rule problems whether it is because of a technical loophole (which this is NOT) or something they didn't agree with philosophically (which this IS) and changes were made by the TWL Ops accordingly.

Regardless the roster lock is tomorrow night (I believe) and I doubt this rule will have any more bearing whatsoever on the season.

Next time you have a problem with the rules, bring it up before the season starts, or else they will be enforced exactly to the letter of the rule. And yes if you think it's ambigious then bring that up too. P_L and Rodge both interpreted the rules in the way that it played out and I believe it was the correct decision.


EDIT: I just want to stress that these are my personal views, and are not the official views of the TWL Staff. As part of the decision affected me, I had nothing to do with making the call on what happened.

Obviously you meant round 2, but looking at the rule it says "Any player joining a Squad for participation in Trench Wars League, will be subject to a one round cool down period after registration and confirmation by a Squad Captain." Since 2d played in week 2 for Venom and then in week 3 for Pirates, there was no cool down round. Also I don't see how you guys joined Pirates before round 2 was over because when you joined Pirates they had already concluded all there games for round 2.

edit: well some jerks already made my point before I finished typing it but I'll leave it anyway

[Lofty]

Burnt hit the nail on the head. There really is no reason to beat around the bush when the simple fact remains that there was no cooldown round. I made the same point very clearly in my log with Rodge above. There is no need for further discussion beyond that.

[genocidal]

Alright well you guys are having two separate arguments. Lofty is arguing the spirit of the rule (ie if it says cooldown period then that should mean the next week) while Epi is arguing the letter of the rule which states the round proceeding the one in which the member left is the cooldown period. As Epi stated, he joined Pirates before their last round of the day on Sunday and therefore is not technically breaking any rule. Who is right? My answer is twofold:

1) Who gives a shit? The game 2d played in was one in which they got crushed. The outcome did not affect -Final- so therefore there's really no reason to argue. Nor did 2d's 6-5 particularly win the LD game vs Rusher since no one on Rusher got 1:1. So you could take away all of 2d's kills and Pirates still would have won. But if you want to be a stickler...

2) In an argument about the spirit vs the letter of the rules I think we should default to the implications incurred by the situation. In this case the -F- TWLB match is irrelevant because a replay of that game would only benefit Pirates since they lost. I did notice that 2d played vs. Rusher in Week 3 as well so there is that to consider. Here is my consideration of it. 2d went 6-5 - it's not like he MVPed - so even if a rule was bent a bit I don't think it affected the game in any significant manner since nobody on Rusher got even 1:1. However, I'm sure Lofty will say that it's the principle that Pirates "played an ineligible player." That is up to TWL Ops to decide but I think that since they asked both PL and Rodge the games will still stand.

PS: They even asked Rodge and PL before they went ahead and played and they OKed it. This shows that they didn't receive some kind of free pass for being involved in staff but that they did care about the rules and were attempting to follow them (which I believe they did).

[Kim]

Yea, the week is already over, its not like we played 2dragons and epi without permission.

[Ephemeral]

"I haven't committed a crime. What I did was fail to comply with the law," David Dinkins, former mayor of New York.

[Darkmoor]

The thing that is arguable is when a round begins and ends. As I see it, a WHOLE TWL round begins on saturday on the first time slot and ends on sunday after all games have been concluded (or alternatively when the time has passed the last time slot if no games are going then). Now, this should be the same for ALL squads in TWL, regardless of when they actually have matches. So, the cooldown round would be the NEXT COMPLETE round. So if you joined during that time, you would have to pass next week's round.

That rule, should actually be modified to reflect something like this. When you have a clear universal definition on a whole TWL round, there would be less problems like this.

[Epinephrine]

Indeed. People just wanna whine/bitch/moan about anything.

Exactly. Rule 5.05 isn't a punishment rule for changing squads. Far from that for TWL to actually punish people for changing squads. Rule 5.05 has two specific philosophical purposes:

1) To prevent people from playing two games in the same weekend for two different squads.
2) To make sure squads don't use strange recruiting tactics to screw over other squads by recruiting away some team's starters (or alternately quickly changing their lineup) before a big game. Since there's a huge grey area about how long before a round a player needs to join before a squad doesn't get screwed, putting it at one week is a good way. Since 'one week' can't be defined properly especially for delays and appeals and such, the 'one round' rule is in effect.

Philosophically, changing squads in mid-round to play next round doesn't really hurt #1 or #2. If you want the rule to be about PUNISHMENT for leaving a squad (a really bad idea, esp if a player is axed unwillingly), then the rule would be worded differently.

"I haven't committed a crime. What I did was fail to comply with the law," David Dinkins, former mayor of New York.

As for me and 2d intentionally breaking some rule, we did not. We cleared it first with the ops to make SURE we weren't breaking any rules because we wanted to be completely sure. My post was merely to clarify what happened. If you still want to be a smartass about it Ephemeral so be it.

In Lofty's log with Rodge, Rodge said that there was no punishment outlined in the rule so it's at the discression of a TWL Op(not quite sure exactly what he was saying though). TheTWL OP chose to do nothing. That's bs. If anything we should at least a rematch which would make this situation somewhat fair.

No dude. Rodge said no rule was broken. Thus no punishment as nothing wrong was done.


Lofty:
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As for 2d leaving, what does Code know? It's not like Code was madly refreshing Venom's TWD roster while playing in a game. 2D doesn't need Code's permission to leave Venom, and whether or not 2D told Code or not, ?squadleft or not, or left the Venom chat or not is irrelevant. He left before the round ended in the only place where it mattered, the TWD/TWL website.

Burnt:
------
Quitting before the round ended is what matter, not whether or not Pirate's games were done for the weekend.

[Randedl]

sorry epi, i think you have it completely wrong. further, i think you might even be inclined to argue the opposite if you weren't directly involved.

let's break it down:

5.05 The Standard Waiting Period for roster eligibility goes as follows:

Any player joining a Squad for participation in Trench Wars League, will be subject to a one round cool down period after registration and confirmation by a Squad Captain.

A round goes from those 1pm est games on saturday until those 5pm est games conclude sunday night.

Players will not be eligible to participate in official Trench Wars League matches until the round proceeding that player joining the Squad has completed

If I go to join a squad any time between 1pm est saturday and those 5pm games ending sunday night, i am joining during a round. The proceeding round would be the next week's matches.

(Example: Players joining before round 3 but after round 2 will not be allowed to play in any games until the round 4 games).

To summarize: If my squad plays all it's games on saturday and i leave and join another squad on sunday, i have left after round 2. However, because round 3 does not start until the next saturday, i am joining before round 3. i will therefor not be able to play until round 4.

I think that the TWL ops got this one wrong. There wasn't a big impact and arguing over punishments shouldn't be the priority. The priority should be in ensuring a similar thing does not occur and have a huge impact.



I mean seriously, these rules are in place to discourage squadhopping during twl as a means of ensuring the stability of the league. The dude played in consecutive weeks for different squads, stop arguing semantics and use common sense.

that's my opinion at least. if i'm wrong, that's why i opened up this thread.

[genocidal]

I think that Rand is right - there needs to be some clarification. But the rule vagueness does allow for interpretation and it's not like the players took it into their own hands to interpret; they asked the TWL Ops.