Base map and cramming

[Noah]

Cramming is a skill and it takes the whole team not just sharks, if you dont like the cram then experiment with specials work out a way to defeat it. I think if you made a new entrance and changed the system of basing then alot of people will leave, why change a perfectly good game.

Thank you for sharing your vast basing veteran knowledge with us. PH, phred and kuuk, you guys just got told by Ronn about how to break the cram. Go do it.

[Ronn]

Cramming is a skill and it takes the whole team not just sharks, if you dont like the cram then experiment with specials work out a way to defeat it. I think if you made a new entrance and changed the system of basing then alot of people will leave, why change a perfectly good game.

[Noah]

Less cram, more base.

[Necromotic]

Cheese :wub:

[PH]

Change the map to something with more than one entrance. This is really, really obvious.

Which means it will be completely ignored in favor of continuing to put the vast majority of players and spectators to sleep with five-spider cramfests. Hooray!

[freddie]

I'm with ph and kuukunen on this one.

Yea fuck the cram.

[Major Crisis]

I think 2 entrances will mess it up really hard... The cram should be changed thats all.

I think most people prefer fr fights above cramming.. so just change that fucking cram.

[NL>TERMINATOR]

try to work as a team
try to use other ships than just spiders

i haven't had a problem with breaking crams ever.

Amen,

fr battles make basing fun.
cram makes basing fun.
breaking cram makes basing fun.

Terr getting shrapped in base is part of basing.
Good teaming makes strong cram.
Good teaming and making the right ship changes will eventually break cram.

If those things are going to be changed basing won't become any fun anymore, imo.

Some changes turn out good others won't.

But keep the base map as it is I really see no other map that will be as fun as this map.

But hey peeps got diff opinions

Pz

[Dabram]

try to work as a team
try to use other ships than just spiders

i haven't had a problem with breaking crams ever.

[Tsumetai]

Well, doh? Do you think the squads don't try to figure out how to break cram? Because your suggestion assumes squads are now presented with a brand new idea: "Hey! Learn how to break cram!" "Zomg! Why didn't we think of it ourselves! We've been so stupid!" Before, I too was thinking that with time, people might learn how to break cram better, but so far no good. If they have, people have learned to cram better too, which is just natural.

Of course squads haven't been given a fresh new idea to try out, and that's exactly why experienced players are so valuable. Simply put the squad that will win it all will be the squad with the best players at using whatever current strategy there is, while meshing well as a team.

The thing is, it's a lot easier to defend cram than to break it. And the squad's ability cram is emphasized to the level of ridiculousness. Having a 15 minute cram against a squad that's close to your team's skill level is very possible. Beating them in every single fr battle during 15 minutes of constant fr battles isn't.

I really don't know what to say here. Are you seriously suggesting that two squads of near equal skill in all facets of the game, including their attack and defense of cram, could end a fight in a 15:00-00:00 game due to one just getting that "lucky TD" at the beginning?

If the new strategy would be as biased as cram currently is, we'd have to change the map again, but most likely it wouldn't. Did you even play when lining was the thing? Lining wasn't this unfair. Some squads were better at it than others, and it made a difference, but it was broken a lot easier, so the whole game wasn't focused on it. It was just a part of the game, not the main thing, like cram is. I have no idea how you think you can claim that there has to be a defence strategy that will be as one-sided as cram currently is.

I don't think a cram strategy is nearly as one-sided as you think, so it's entirely believable for me that people will come up with just as flawed maps.

People saying: "Hey! Just learn to break it! It's part of the game and both teams have equal chances so best should win anyways." aren't really thinking it through. How about this... We make a map with only one long tube leading to fr, 2 blocks wide. Then ban the sharks. So the game would be decided after the first terr kill, since it would be impossible to get in with seven spids timing their shots and protecting each others from the one stray bullet that might end up flying to the end. Hey, it would be equal for both teams right?

This isn't about the spectators. Cram is boring for everyone. And it's not even mostly about how boring it is, but how much it's overemphasized and how much it makes luck a factor. Get one lucky terr kill and that's automatically loads of flag time.

Good analogy for showing your point, but bad analogy for actually relating to how cram works. I would totally agree with you if cramming was anywhere near that one-sided, but it really isn't.

For the sake of an example, let's make a simplified model of this. Let's assume the cram always takes the same amount of time to break. So in fr battles, the attacking team has a chance to kill the terr and get the flagroom. The longer the cram, the less there are chances. This was my point in the "long tube"-example. With it, there's only one chance. So if a squad sucks, and wins fr battles 30% of the time, but can hold the cram, they still win 30% of the games even though they were clearly much worse. If the winning team has to win two fr battles (because the cram takes so long to break) that same squad will only win 21.6% of the games. With three fr battles, the number is 16.3% and with more fr battles the number just goes down. If you really want and can't do math, I can explain how I got those numbers.

Yeah, I guess that explains why Dice have any wins this season (I kid, I kid, you guys are incredibly good at basing, and the smart bet is still on you guys to win another title).

Again, I'll have to say you've got a nice theory there, but I don't really see a good example of a squad that sucks that much at FR battles, is that good at cram, and has way more wins than it should. And I think I know why you haven't provided any examples: you don't want to piss said squad off if you were to name a current one, and you'd end up in a never-ending argument of "You only won because the strategy is so biased" vs. "You severly underestimate us, jackass!" And you know why it'd be never-ending? Because the damn thing is so subjective. You can't quantify skill of an individual player and you can't quantify how well a group of players works as a team in cold hard numbers. The only fairly objective way of measuring a squad's skill level is to have them compete with other squads, and even then you only get a decent idea of how good they are at working that particular map used.

The point is, if a squad sucks that much, they shouldn't win almost any of the games. I'm not saying we should try to remove luck factor altogether, that would be boring too. Not that it's even possible, and squads are always going to have different line up, people having a bad day etc etc... but that's besides the point.

If a squad sucks that much it won't have a chance at holding cram. No squad that gets utterly dominated in FR battles by every other squad in the league is going to be able to win by keeping a cram up that long. The only time they would ever win is by a good bit of luck, and by being on their game while the other squad is underestimating them and fucking around or is just "off" themselves. You treat cram like an ultimate defense that any bunch of semi-competent players could keep up; it's not, it is just the best option available. And really, that's the whole basis for my disagreeing with you. The strategy just does not make up for shitty players.

[Vykromond]

Cram basing is boring. It's extremely tedious to watch and not much better to play. The flagroom is where nearly all the "fun" of basing occurs, so open the fucking flagroom. The base game has atrophied as a direct result of the rise of cram basing. And the fault isn't the players' for seeking, finding, and applying the best solution to the current set of givens.

Change the map to something with more than one entrance. This is really, really obvious.

[Spikester]

I'm with ph and kuukunen on this one.

[Kuukunen]

Sigh, nothing will happen because everyone is scared of change

Sad, but true. Those suggestions would probably make the game more interesting, but with this amount of resistance even against every obvious change, it's very unlikely.

actually cram promotes 5 spids lineups since spiders shooting down is what cram is

Agreed. That's been one of my points too. For a jav to break a good cram effectively he needs lag. Does anyone think it's a good thing the people without lag are useless in jav? And the main reason for not using a lanc or wb is because they basically suck at attacking and defending cram. Sure, wb might get rep ignores and mess up enemy's shark timing, but good sharks know to avoid that and it's not easy to get any kind of shot at the sharks because the spids are getting overpowered so there's usually a constant bullet rain. Then few people will whine how underrated lanc is and it can break cram, so sure, some people might disagree with me on this, but I haven't seen any proof contradicting it.

Here's a suggestion: learn to push effectively with 5 spiders or get a good jav or do whatever you think would work. You do that and you'll be able to break any cram. If you can't play a certain part of the game anywhere near the level of the other squad you'll lose most every time. This holds true for FR fights, crams, or any other phase of battle which might be created by changing the map.

Well, doh? Do you think the squads don't try to figure out how to break cram? Because your suggestion assumes squads are now presented with a brand new idea: "Hey! Learn how to break cram!" "Zomg! Why didn't we think of it ourselves! We've been so stupid!" Before, I too was thinking that with time, people might learn how to break cram better, but so far no good. If they have, people have learned to cram better too, which is just natural.

The thing is, it's a lot easier to defend cram than to break it. And the squad's ability cram is emphasized to the level of ridiculousness. Having a 15 minute cram against a squad that's close to your team's skill level is very possible. Beating them in every single fr battle during 15 minutes of constant fr battles isn't.

If we were to change the map today, a new strategy would eventually be worked out to be the most effective (I'd say a few months tops), and there will be squads who do much better at it than others, and will beat squads not so much weaker than they are overall by a large margin at times. And after a while of this people will bitch again about it being "boring" or some bullshit like that and would want to change the map yet again.

If the new strategy would be as biased as cram currently is, we'd have to change the map again, but most likely it wouldn't. Did you even play when lining was the thing? Lining wasn't this unfair. Some squads were better at it than others, and it made a difference, but it was broken a lot easier, so the whole game wasn't focused on it. It was just a part of the game, not the main thing, like cram is. I have no idea how you think you can claim that there has to be a defence strategy that will be as one-sided as cram currently is.

People saying: "Hey! Just learn to break it! It's part of the game and both teams have equal chances so best should win anyways." aren't really thinking it through. How about this... We make a map with only one long tube leading to fr, 2 blocks wide. Then ban the sharks. So the game would be decided after the first terr kill, since it would be impossible to get in with seven spids timing their shots and protecting each others from the one stray bullet that might end up flying to the end. Hey, it would be equal for both teams right?

The game is only boring to spectators, and players on winning teams on incredibly lopsided matches (such as literal 15:00-00:00 games). And ya know what I think? Fuck the spectators, this isn't about them. League matches are not around to entertain nerds on the internet who are just sitting on their ass with nothing better to do, its for nerds to beat up each other figuratively in an online game to see who is better. If you REALLY want a game to be entertaining, why not get rid of the basing walls entirely and just leave a couple of bars hanging in the vicinity of flag? That kind of game will constantly change hands.

This isn't about the spectators. Cram is boring for everyone. And it's not even mostly about how boring it is, but how much it's overemphasized and how much it makes luck a factor. Get one lucky terr kill and that's automatically loads of flag time.

For the sake of an example, let's make a simplified model of this. Let's assume the cram always takes the same amount of time to break. So in fr battles, the attacking team has a chance to kill the terr and get the flagroom. The longer the cram, the less there are chances. This was my point in the "long tube"-example. With it, there's only one chance. So if a squad sucks, and wins fr battles 30% of the time, but can hold the cram, they still win 30% of the games even though they were clearly much worse. If the winning team has to win two fr battles (because the cram takes so long to break) that same squad will only win 21.6% of the games. With three fr battles, the number is 16.3% and with more fr battles the number just goes down. If you really want and can't do math, I can explain how I got those numbers.

The point is, if a squad sucks that much, they shouldn't win almost any of the games. I'm not saying we should try to remove luck factor altogether, that would be boring too. Not that it's even possible, and squads are always going to have different line up, people having a bad day etc etc... but that's besides the point.

The point is:

fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram

[Creature]

Has anyone considered a randomly changing map where every game is different? This would promote improvisation on a squadron's part...

[midoent]

I am all for changing the cram.

Think about it: as long as your spiders are smart enough to balance, to dodge corner camps and your sharks can time, chances are youll hold a long ass cram. And none of those components require that much skill really. Furthermore, cram pretty much keeps terriers doing nothing half the game.

Specials arent promoted at all with crams. In league play there are only handful of javs that can make a difference in the yellow ship. But think about it: necromotic, domi, da1andonly have been playing this game for a while now and they are all very talented. Personally, I am a big fan of diso's basing with specials. But even if they have really successful season, heck even if they win, I really doubt many squads would start using 2 specials because diso is an old squad with players who played with each other for a long time. Would take a while to make that sort of lineup effective. 5 spider cram will still dominate.

The way I picture best basers are not the ones who are best at a map on which 99% of the strats have been tried already. Think about it: if you change a map each season youll let squads think up new tactics and how to counter them before matches. Heck, each game in a season might be completely different than the other one. It won't be just people who practiced to play the same way for 5000 hrs. What I am saying here, is that IMO there should not be a map that has to last as tw's main base/pub map for so long as this one did.

What I think is really needed is some map designer to actually step up and try to come up with an alternate basing map for 8v8 players. It's easier to reject an idea with nothing about it.

Also, I think most people will flame me about this, but: I noticed that 7v7 6v6 cram is much much easier to break for obvious reasons. The 6s cram allows a terr to be able to fly in half the time with all spids in there burst and basically kill the whole thing. (as done numerously by acidbomber <3) So maybe if leagues are made 6s, just think about it. Most squads almost never have enough for 8s and they frown upon playing anything less than 7s. So if 6s was the number of basers in leagues that would mean: more squads, more twbd games, heck i wouldnt be surprised if some squads would choose to only have 1 shark + 1 special (probably wb) and line for that mid dominance.

Also, think of several other possibilities: 2 reps for sharks on spawn with unlimited reps stored capacity, a bit shorter spawn time and maybe some other tweaks. Longer spawn time? 1 shark max with 4-5 reps? Automatic mine on attach? Sharks possessing a jav bomb? (i am just kidding here now)

Sigh, nothing will happen because everyone is scared of change so I guess I am going to just have to look forward towards twsdx