Base map and cramming

[Exalt]

glad i dont base, basing sucks, its boring and ruining the game by basicly promoting purepub

new players hate basing too, thats why they dont stick to this game

time to make purewb pub $$$

[PH]

fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

[Tsumetai]

fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram

Honestly, I have zero interest in this league now because of the cram and I know I'm not alone. Get rid of it.

Nah.

[PH]

fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram fuck the cram

Honestly, I have zero interest in this league now because of the cram and I know I'm not alone. Get rid of it.

[Tsumetai]

Here's a suggestion: learn to push effectively with 5 spiders or get a good jav or do whatever you think would work. You do that and you'll be able to break any cram. If you can't play a certain part of the game anywhere near the level of the other squad you'll lose most every time. This holds true for FR fights, crams, or any other phase of battle which might be created by changing the map.

If we were to change the map today, a new strategy would eventually be worked out to be the most effective (I'd say a few months tops), and there will be squads who do much better at it than others, and will beat squads not so much weaker than they are overall by a large margin at times. And after a while of this people will bitch again about it being "boring" or some bullshit like that and would want to change the map yet again.

The game is only boring to spectators, and players on winning teams on incredibly lopsided matches (such as literal 15:00-00:00 games). And ya know what I think? Fuck the spectators, this isn't about them. League matches are not around to entertain nerds on the internet who are just sitting on their ass with nothing better to do, its for nerds to beat up each other figuratively in an online game to see who is better. If you REALLY want a game to be entertaining, why not get rid of the basing walls entirely and just leave a couple of bars hanging in the vicinity of flag? That kind of game will constantly change hands.

[Eeks]

I do, in a way, agree with you.

However, cramming promotes squads to use different lineups. Recruit more skilled people, to not just for flagroom fights, but for breaking crams etc as well.

Even if something is changed, people develop their skills and gaming styles, which will eventually end up to a similar situation as it is now. Maybe not cram, but another "problem". For the problem to come up, people will have to get used to the new style of the entrance, which on the other hand would make squads too evenly matched since neither of the 2 matching squads know what the best thing to do is yet.

As far as I know, basing map hasn't been changed in quite a while. As it is, it does work out rather well. The more basing squads - if they're not messing around - do win with skill and team play since they've been playing more. Basing, just like everything else in TW will eventually stick to one development "age". Currently in basing it's cramming, since it's the best way to go. There's always someone who'll be unhappy with things.

You have multiple cram breakable ships usable in basing. Use them. Get a player into your squad that's good enough. Team up to get in. If you can't, you need more practice. Even the best sharks screw up. Cram won't last forever if the attacking team isn't horrible and doesn't know at all what to do.

Not saying any squads suck, just generalizing and giving tips. It's what the game is about. Figure out best possible solutions to winning a game and practice your skills to match those solutions.

forgat how new you are

actually cram promotes 5 spids lineups since spiders shooting down is what cram is

addding a couple new holes to fr entrance area would make cramming against a jav close to impossible and would promote the use of specials in twlb

[Pressure Drop]

i dunno

i'm NOT A SHARK

but i've sharked alot to know that it's a really important ship.

cram is an extension of this, yes if 2 sharks are teaming well its hard to break them.


but i've sharked in many teams with another good shark but weak spids and it's impossible to hold cram.

all in all yes cram might look boring, yes in 2 evenly matched squads it can be a decider , but sharking isn't a great job and most would rather spid etc ... it takes skill from the sharks to cram well and adds to a team element. sharks are a pretty selfless ship.


i'd still be in favour of a change to ships 4&6 to make them more basable. even leaving the weasel out of twd and changing 4 to a ship challenging the javelin and l2 bombs with shrap and a rep might add something to twbd

[PH]

Fuck the cram.

[Shadowmere]

I do, in a way, agree with you.

However, cramming promotes squads to use different lineups. Recruit more skilled people, to not just for flagroom fights, but for breaking crams etc as well.

Even if something is changed, people develop their skills and gaming styles, which will eventually end up to a similar situation as it is now. Maybe not cram, but another "problem". For the problem to come up, people will have to get used to the new style of the entrance, which on the other hand would make squads too evenly matched since neither of the 2 matching squads know what the best thing to do is yet.

As far as I know, basing map hasn't been changed in quite a while. As it is, it does work out rather well. The more basing squads - if they're not messing around - do win with skill and team play since they've been playing more. Basing, just like everything else in TW will eventually stick to one development "age". Currently in basing it's cramming, since it's the best way to go. There's always someone who'll be unhappy with things.

You have multiple cram breakable ships usable in basing. Use them. Get a player into your squad that's good enough. Team up to get in. If you can't, you need more practice. Even the best sharks screw up. Cram won't last forever if the attacking team isn't horrible and doesn't know at all what to do.

Not saying any squads suck, just generalizing and giving tips. It's what the game is about. Figure out best possible solutions to winning a game and practice your skills to match those solutions.

[Kuukunen]

I was watching Mambo vs. TeKs today. The game was pure cram. Mambo had the base for 13 minutes straight. Only variation was couple of terr kills while cramming. I'm not saying here TeKs should've beaten us, but they at least deserved a chance. In the beginning, they had lots of potential situations for terr kill, but they lost the game after couple of minutes when they got thrown out of base.

This is not a new thing. It has annoyed me for a long time. (There's other things that should be changed too, like shark shraps, but this is more importat so I'll start with this.) Unfortunatelly I've been lazy and also hopeful staff would realize this is just stupid. Well, I did manage to get a map change to base2 for a short period of time, but my discussion about it with Pure_Luck went something like this: "Pure_Luck> well, I asked my squadmates what they thought about this, and those who bothered to answer didn't dare argue with me, so future for any changes looks dim" (Ok, he actually just said "they didn't like it too much", but the point is still the same.)

In ?go base this isn't such a big problem, but in leagues, basically all the sharks are good enough to hold cram for long periods of time. There's been so many games that have been basically two or three crams. I can't say for sure, but I think vast majority of the games have had at least one cram that could be described "very long". If there's two squads of equal strength, it's very possible that a stray shark shrap decides whole game. Terr gets strayed, team gets thrown out of base, and they get crammed for the last 5 minutes. I've seen so many games in which neither team can break the other's cram effectively, even though in fr they're equally matched. There's also been games where a team is getting owned in fr, but manages to get couple of terr kills and then holds cram and finishes with 15:00-4:56. Do you think the ability to cram is that much more important than ability to fight fr battles? Most squads can get a terr kill once in a while against any squad, but if they get crammed, no chance and the whole game is boring. I'm not trying to say worse squads should beat better squads, exactly the other way around. With much shorter crams, lucky terr deaths mean less and the importance of skill grows. The games become much more interesting, and equally matches squads can decide the game in a fair way, and not in a manner where one of the teams constantly has the unfair advantage of cram.

I'm not talking about all games. Lots of games are pretty good with little cramming, but so many games are like 4 minute cram, 1 minute fr battle, 6 minute cram, 1 minute fr battle, 3 minute cram, 1 minute fr battle, 6 minute cram, terr flies in, gets killed, 4 minute cram, end. Who honestly thinks cramming is what basing is about?! I don't. Is there someone who actually likes cramming? Because if my guess is right, and most people don't, why the fuck hasn't anything been done to this thing?!

So what's my suggestion? The most obvious and easiest one: change the map. Here's my initial quick sketch:


As you see, the point is to remove a place for terr to sit so people get repped out of cram more effectively. It might have some problems and it might need some testing and tweaking, but my idea was to try to affect fr battles as little as possible. (Since people are so afraid of changes.) Possible problem with the old base2 map, where the terr sitting blocks were removed, so underflag was very open and there weren't too many places for hiding save for the suicidal dead ends. Under is a bit more open in this version too, but everything else is unchanged. (Except cram of course.) It gives a new safe place for sitting on the side of the flag thing, but that's not a big thing and might prove to be an interesting new strategic twist.

Again, I'm not saying that my suggestion is the best there is, it's just a suggestion, my main point here is that SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE.