Base map and cramming

[Mythrandir]

I have trouble understanding people's resistance to adjusting the map a little. I admit I really liked lining; especially as a terr, I enjoyed timing respawns & distributing ships equally on each side of the line. But I like the cram just as much, it has a much stronger emphasis on timing, and it has really taught basers to be much more aggressive on pushing to get inside. I'm sure that a basing team of today could break the 5-year old lining defense in record time.
I think we all agree that the flagroom battle is the most exciting aspect of basing, but a basing game with just flagroom battles does get lame as well, for obvious reasons.

When the cram was new, I used to agree with the nay-sayers: find a way to break it, learn to play more aggressive, push harder, try new ship combinations, etc. But this was 5 years ago! From what I recall, it took at most two months of automated basing to switch from lining to cramming. After 5 years, players have perfected this strategy to impressive degrees, but it is still the same strategy. If nothing changes, the cram is here to stay as dominant as it is.

Regarding the proposed changes, right now I think that adding a second entrance is too major. If the goal is to make cram slightly less effective, we're looking at minor changes - hence my support of Flub's proposal and proposals similar to that.

[Flub]

Regarding the proposed changes, right now I think that adding a second entrance is too major. If the goal is to make cram slightly less effective, we're looking at minor changes - hence my support of Flub's proposal and proposals similar to that.

fixed

Why not try it out, get some good basers and have some 8 vs 8 games to test it out, then maybe put it up as ?go base or even ?go base2 so people can choose where they want to play. And then later have a poll so we could maybe have a new map for next league?

It's better than staying here and do nothing.

[Mythrandir]

fixed

Why not try it out, get some good basers and have some 8 vs 8 games to test it out, then maybe put it up as ?go base or even ?go base2 so people can choose where they want to play. And then later have a poll so we could maybe have a new map for next league?

It's better than staying here and do nothing.

Sorry for the misspelling, I blame FLaBiN for that. As for testing such maps, I'm all for that but obviously I'm not in charge of that anymore.

[Doc Flabby]

IMHO, even with four spids and one special, the cram would still be way too flawed. But whatever works, I don't care. I just want it fixed.

I was suggesting removing all limits rather than adding more.

A smart leviathan would make easy work of any cram. A (pub style) weasel could also disrupt it quite easily) The cram has only arrived as a tactic because the natural ships to prevent it existing as an effective tactic are not allowed. Another "cram buster" would be to use 4 sharks. The limits in twlb have created the cram as a tactic, in (non-pure) pub no one crams, its simply ineffective tactic.

[Mythrandir]

I was suggesting removing all limits rather than adding more.

A smart leviathan would make easy work of any cram. A (pub style) weasel could also disrupt it quite easily) The cram has only arrived as a tactic because the natural ships to prevent it existing as an effective tactic are not allowed. Another "cram buster" would be to use 4 sharks. The limits in twlb have created the cram as a tactic, in (non-pure) pub no one crams, its simply ineffective tactic.

There was a period where two terriers were allowed, people hated it. The pub style weasel has been in ?go base (if I recall correctly) as well, it was ineffective. I don't think that using 4 sharks would be a cram buster, it seems that with 3-4 sharks, one could maintain a permanent repel wall, which would be the advantage for the defending team. Introducing the leviathan can be interesting though.

[Sufficient]

Myth ... do you remember that minor changes were suggested in the past ... even tested ... and still shot down. The nub that keeps the terr in place was taken away. The cram hole was enlarged. The jav shot holes were enlarged.

A decent amount of testing was done to all of those and still no changes were made.

[PaulOakenfold]

The nub that keeps the terr in place was taken away.

I am the nub that keeps the terr in place.

[Mythrandir]

Myth ... do you remember that minor changes were suggested in the past ... even tested ... and still shot down. The nub that keeps the terr in place was taken away. The cram hole was enlarged. The jav shot holes were enlarged.

A decent amount of testing was done to all of those and still no changes were made.

I actually wasn't around so I didn't know that. I knew some people were toying around with alternative maps, but I've never played or seen one in-game. They were shot down why?

[Sufficient]

I actually wasn't around so I didn't know that. I knew some people were toying around with alternative maps, but I've never played or seen one in-game. They were shot down why?

To be honest I dunno. There was a public push to have a slight basing map change. Suggestions were put out. Maps were tweaked and uploaded. They were subsequently tested ... and I think either the higher ops thought it wasn't worth changing or the public just said, "screw it, let's just deal with the cram".

Maybe now there is enough public for change that it can be successful. At least I hope so. I'm personally in favor of the 2 entrances and access to roof idea.

Edit: The testing was done in some arenas ... maybe called #fr1, #fr2 ... something like that.

[CrvenBan]

I actually wasn't around so I didn't know that. I knew some people were toying around with alternative maps, but I've never played or seen one in-game. They were shot down why?

I think it was some year(s) ago that those changes tested when the basing scene consisted of 2 sides, newly cram squads + older cram squads and like 2 squads with other experience(s). Nobody from their side wanted a change

[Kuukunen]

The limits in twlb have created the cram as a tactic, in (non-pure) pub no one crams, its simply ineffective tactic.

It's not because it's ineffective. In non-pure pubs no one crams, because non-pure pubs are pure mess. :P

Cramming would need one terr, couple of spids and two sharks to be actually something that resembles cramming. All would have to know what they're doing. All sensible basers who are pubbing are probably in pure pub anyways, so chances for a real cram is nonexistent. And yea, some idiot would just lev and blow up the cram.

Now, lev in TWLB would change the dynamics. Sure, test it if you want, but using a lev in basing would most likely turn it into something horrible. :P
If a team chose to use lev, in the opposing team there would probably be one spid assigned to just concentrate on spawning it.

[Doc Flabby]

And yea, some idiot would just lev and blow up the cram.

Thats my point, its an entirly ineffective tactic. You really need a floating shark (that can move to where the blue bomb is going to hit to defend the fr effectivly from leviathan. non-pure pub is where the next generations of basers will come from, ones that won't cry when they get hit with a blue bomb.

There was a period where two terriers were allowed, people hated it. The pub style weasel has been in ?go base (if I recall correctly) as well, it was ineffective. I don't think that using 4 sharks would be a cram buster, it seems that with 3-4 sharks, one could maintain a permanent repel wall, which would be the advantage for the defending team. Introducing the leviathan can be interesting though.

If all these tactics are so bad, why restrict ships at all? If a team had 1 terrier, 2 sharks, 3 lancs and 2 weasels of the type in pub now they would cause havoc in the flagroom, if the other team was trying to cram. The lancasters could then setup a solid line which would be hard to get into base. espescially with the weasels. To counter this teams could use a leviathan or serveral javs to render the weasels ineffective. Maybe its because i'm not a baser but i find twlb so unimaganative in the ship choices advaible because of all the restrictions. Theres no room for imagainative new tactics. Changing the map will only work untill a new version of the "cram" is found.

I would allow a captain to make unlimited ship changes with unrestricted ships. Allowing a team to adapt to an opponent.

[Kuukunen]

Thats my point, its an entirly ineffective tactic. You really need a floating shark (that can move to where the blue bomb is going to hit to defend the fr effectivly from leviathan. non-pure pub is where the next generations of basers will come from, ones that won't cry when they get hit with a blue bomb.

Nah. Levs will never be used in basing. As I said, using a lev would just force the opposing team to get someone spawn the lev for the whole match. The rest would be cramming normally.

If all these tactics are so bad, why restrict ships at all? If a team had 1 terrier, 2 sharks, 3 lancs and 2 weasels of the type in pub now they would cause havoc in the flagroom, if the other team was trying to cram. The lancasters could then setup a solid line which would be hard to get into base. espescially with the weasels. To counter this teams could use a leviathan or serveral javs to render the weasels ineffective. Maybe its because i'm not a baser but i find twlb so unimaganative in the ship choices advaible because of all the restrictions. Theres no room for imagainative new tactics. Changing the map will only work untill a new version of the "cram" is found.

So basing should be just like non-pure pub? Personally I hate playing in non-pure pubs. Mostly because I want to base, and that's impossible there. Please don't try to suggest to make basing impossible in TWLB.

Oh and it seems I had some troubles with my server, so the picture didn't show up in the original post. Here it is again:

[Sufficient]

I dunno if it's still around but I tried to tweak ?go base to open up roof (perhaps to make javs even more viable then they are now).

?go basesuff ... or ?go suffbase

Even a simple change to ?go boki (with cleaner tiles) would be a welcomed change imo.

[Kuukunen]

I dunno if it's still around but I tried to tweak ?go base to open up roof (perhaps to make javs even more viable then they are now).

?go basesuff ... or ?go suffbase

Even a simple change to ?go boki (with cleaner tiles) would be a welcomed change imo.

Yea it's around. But opening the roof like that is not a solution for cram. :/
If it was, people would be roof javing already in the current map. Yea it's been done in ?go base, and at times it has worked, but it's too easy to make the roof jav completely useless.