Base map and cramming

[Flub]

why are people fucking trying to compare this with sports like it would 1. be the same thing and even more importantly 2. like they fucking never have changed the rules in sports to make the game more entertaining? Hello idiots, do you know what football(soccer) is? do you know what hockey is? do you fuckig know how many rule changes there have been oh say the last 20 years? stfu please fucking idiots.

:wub:

[Jeenyuss]

we're not changing rules, we're changing the layout. this is similar to the nhl after the '04-'05 lockout they made the neutral zone smaller and they put the trapezoid behind the net to designate that as the only place a goalie could play the puck. and i'm sure you're right. i'm sure the NBA or any other sports league has never revised any rule in their history. i mean, it's not like we review the twl rules every season either, is it?

it's been proven that for this flag room, the cram is the most effective strategy. you'll even notice disoblige (they play two specials) still crams because it has been proven to be the most effective. if you can so easily adapt to change then let's make a new map and you can have fun figuring out a different strategy.

edit:damnit mantra

[Ronn]

why are people fucking trying to compare this with sports like it would 1. be the same thing and even more importantly 2. like they fucking never have changed the rules in sports to make the game more entertaining? Hello idiots, do you know what football(soccer) is? do you know what hockey is? do you fuckig know how many rule changes there have been oh say the last 20 years? stfu please fucking idiots.

CALM DOWN! You must be defending your new boyfriend because that is fkn stupid.

What I was trying to say is that the cram is an established part of basing and changing it would be changing the whole dynamic of basing. Which is what would happen if you changed the layout of the pitch in football.

[Noah]

What I was trying to say is that the cram is an established part of basing and changing it would be changing the whole dynamic of basing.

:detective
That just might be the point.
Same as new maps and features to other games changes up things.

[Sufficient]

In any new map ppl will still cram. So it's not like it's going to disappear. Cram is simply fitting as many ships into one chokepoint as possible.

[Kuukunen]

I cant believe anyone is seriously considering this idea. Imagine in football someone said the game is boring in the middle of the park and much better near the goal so they decided to make the pitch basically two goals next to eachother, it would look like some kind of american sport ffs!!!

Trenchwars is not gonna die we dont need to change anything. Youre all just jumping on a bandwagon.

and noah this isnt an fps so stfu

Ok, I'm trying to avoid insults, but this post was just fucking stupid, as Noah already pointed out.

Trenchwars is a hell of a lot closer to fps than to football. But since comparing changing basing to changing football is a seemingly valid point, I'll discuss that a bit.

The modern rules of football started from from the Cambridge rules in 1848.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrid...les_circa_1856

You can see that for example using the hand was still allowed. Of course even before 1848, the game was played, and the rules were constantly changed and tested. The whole dynamics of the game were very different back then.

Football is hundreds of years old, in some forms even thousands, and everything has changed and tested and changed again. Compared to football, basing is just a newborn baby. It started only a couple of years ago, and claiming that we now have the best possible rules, is just idiotic. We haven't even really tried other rules too much. It would be more conceivable that the old guys deciding on football rules would consider their game sacred, but I found page with the history of the rules of footbal, check how much they've changed since 1970:
http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/...storylaw1.html
http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/...storylaw2.html
http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/...storylaw3.html
http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/...storylaw4.html

In addition, I heard there's even been serious discussion of making the goals bigger to make scoring easier.

Let's take a break from the history of sports.

In any new map ppl will still cram. So it's not like it's going to disappear. Cram is simply fitting as many ships into one chokepoint as possible.

What the fuck are you talking about? Where the hell did you get the idea that there would be cram in every map? There are couple of requirements for a cram to work. 1) The settings have to be suitable. Sharks have to have enough repels and short enough spawning time. 2) There can only be one entrance. 3) The entrance must be small enough. 4) Close to the choke point there must be a safe place for a terr to sit where he can't be repped away.

The suggestions have mostly targetted the fourth point. Flub's idea was to make it less safe, and mine was to remove the sitting place altogether. Either should work.

Now, I don't know how many people were around when lining was the thing, but just to be sure, here's a history lesson. When no one had thought of cramming, there used to be this defence strategy called "lining". It involved spiders going to the sides of the entrance and shooting horizontally. The sharks tried to disturb the enemy by pushing them either up into the fire or down away from entrance. The terr had to be very aware of everything and had to fly to either side to drop attaching people to keep the balance. This worked well, and the game was much more balanced than today. But then people found a flaw and started abusing it. I think it's actually a lot more intuitive for a random map to have a choke point defenders shoot into (like in lining) rather than to have a choke point where the defenders actually want to go and sit.

Aaand, back to sports....

we're not changing rules, we're changing the layout. this is similar to the nhl after the '04-'05 lockout they made the neutral zone smaller and they put the trapezoid behind the net to designate that as the only place a goalie could play the puck. and i'm sure you're right. i'm sure the NBA or any other sports league has never revised any rule in their history. i mean, it's not like we review the twl rules every season either, is it?

Well, first of all, I think "changing the layout" is changing the rules, but as Mantra said, they do change the rules (or layout) in sports. You are sure no sports league has ever revised any rule in their history?! What the fuck, man? You mentioned NBA, so I checked their history. They've changed shitloads of rules every fucking season.
http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html

Let's talk about other sports then. From the top of my mind I remember couple of examples from athletics. Like, in 1984, they changed the javelin because the throwers were starting to become too good. I also heard of this story that ages ago some farmer figured out a good way of throwing the javelin when he was working on the field with some poles. I think it involved putting the javelin to his armpit and throw it with a spinning motion. Well, they banned that. I also heard this story of why you can't change your grip more than once in pole vault. There was this acrobat guy who was participating in pole vault tournament. He just waited for everyone to fail and then set the bar a bit higher. He walked to the bar with his pole, balanced the pole on the ground and started climbing it. Once on top, he just hopped over the bar. Well, they disqualified him even though he had followed the rules. These both stories came from my dad, and might be just legends, but he has no reasons to lie to me and the point is still the same.

Please try to convince me for example football or basketball rules have the exact same "dynamics" as a hundred years ago. They do revise their rules to make the game more interesting and/or balanced, we don't. Why? Well, I can't really think of any good reason save for stupidity and/or stubborness of people. Naturally the changes made today to football or basketball aren't huge, because the major flaws were removed already a hundred years ago. Every sport association changes the rules if someone finds a flaw or an unbalanced strategy. We don't. We have flawed rules/laws/layout. FIX IT!

[Sufficient]

Why so hostile? If you change the map and have 2 entrances ... teams will still try to cram/choke off the entrance. Will they be successful? I don't know. But with every single map every team will try to "cram" or "choke" off the enemy.

The less you talk about the old days of lining before the cram, the less resistance and resentment you'll get from the newer players as well.

[Jeenyuss]

words

"witty language used to convey insults or scorn"
this is a definition to something but i am unsure what it is for exactly. is this the definition for the word chocolate? i don't know, i am lost. maybe it is the definition for clouds.

i was agreeing with you, kuuk. if you hadn't noticed in my previous posts i am advocating a map change. the sheer fact that i was agreeing with eelam should have set off alarms in your head to let you know i was being facetious. not to mention i brought up an example of the NHL changing the rink set-up. i thought it was pretty clear the way i was leaning in this argument, but i guess i just spelled it out for you.

[Kuukunen]

Of course they'll try to choke the entrance. But it doesn't mean they're going to cram it. By cram, people usually mean the whole thing of spids being in a small area in the entrance while sharks are repping, dying and attaching. The term wasn't even really used before cram was invented.

Even if they do cram the entrance in another map, that doesn't mean it has to be as effective as it is in the current map. Take the current map for an example. When the defenders are trying to prevent attackers from getting to the mid, they try to choke the main tube. It's a lot like cramming, but I wouldn't call it that. Besides, choking in the tube has never been as effective as cramming the fr entrance.

And of course I talk about the old days. The very existance of lining proves cram wasn't originally part of the game. It also proves you can have a somewhat balanced defensive strategy people consider to be the best.

Oh and sorry for being a bit hostile. :/
I got kind of carried away in the forest of unfounded arguments.

Edit: The closest word I know is "satire".
1. the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
2. a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.
3. a literary genre comprising such compositions.

"In satire, human or individual vices, follies, abuses, or shortcomings are held up to censure by means of ridicule, derision, burlesque, irony, or other methods, ideally with an intent to bring about improvement.

Although satire is usually meant to be funny, the purpose of satire is not primarily humour in itself so much as an often quite angry attack on something the author strongly disapproves, using the weapon of wit."

[Aquatiq]

the base should just be a tube the entire length of the map, about a half screen in width, with one flag on each end, in each spawn area, most points after 20 minutes wins, and that should be twlb!

[Tsumetai]

the base should just be a tube the entire length of the map, about a half screen in width, with one flag on each end, in each spawn area, most points after 20 minutes wins, and that should be twlb!

Sounds bad... AWESOMELY bad. I vote for this.

[Facetious]

i was being facetious

????

[Doc Flabby]

The problem is not the map. Its the ship limits.

[eelam <tw>]

re

squads push to terr downs in FR so they can CRAM, if we remove the power of the "cram" you remove the point of getting terr downs. Keep in mind there are spiders and teams who are have strengths and weaknesses. Pandora is the best FR battling squad, we own the FR but we cant CRAM for shit, than you got Dice who sucks ass in the FR but are the masters of cram. Than you got pene who are good in FR and decent in CRAM, and so on and so on. Every squad has their strengths. Kuu just cause yours sucks all around doesn't mean we should change the rules. Just cause you like to WB and getting rid of cram makes ur WB "more" effective isn't grounds for changing the map. Changing the map is like sending every1 back into the stone age. Plus there is no logic IN changing the map, if your good you would know how to break cram. Guess you didn't watch finals of last season, eh? When pandora/dice showed people how to fight in FR, break Crams, and actually Base.

[Kuukunen]

@Jeenyuss:
No, I didn't misinterpret your post. I didn't attack you or even your whole post. I just attacked the delusion that sports associations don't change the rules. (And also the minor claim that changing layout isn't changing the rules.) I was a bit too hostile, sorry, but it was mostly targeted at Ronn, since your false fact was supporting him, even if the layout thing was not.

The problem is not the map. Its the ship limits.

IMHO, even with four spids and one special, the cram would still be way too flawed. But whatever works, I don't care. I just want it fixed.

squads push to terr downs in FR so they can DEFEND

Fixed. Apparently you weren't playing pre-cram either? Where did I say there should be no defense of any kind? I only said the current system is biased.

Every squad has their strengths. Kuu just cause yours sucks all around doesn't mean we should change the rules. Just cause you like to WB and getting rid of cram makes ur WB "more" effective isn't grounds for changing the map.

Ooh, getting personal, aren't we. Scary.
If you read back, the whole post started after the game where Mambo had a 13 minute cram. Sure, I like to wb and sure, cramming makes wbs less effective, but I don't care about that. If that was what it takes to change the cram, I could promise never to wb in base. Besides, I haven't even played in TWLB this season, I don't care about the leagues too much at the moment, I've been too inactive. I just want to make the game of basing better.

Changing the map is like sending every1 back into the stone age. Plus there is no logic IN changing the map, if your good you would know how to break cram. Guess you didn't watch finals of last season, eh? When pandora/dice showed people how to fight in FR, break Crams, and actually Base.

*sigh*
Good squads do have problems with breaking the cram effectively, it takes too long. And as I said before, it's not in every game. Most of the games are fine. The fact one game didn't have huge crams doesn't mean shit.

Then read what Noah said. They change the maps in FPS games. That's "sending everyone back into the stone age" too. Are you saying they shouldn't do it? Maybe they should just use one map for every game too. Please tell me how this is different from changing the map in base? If someone loses all his skills if the map changes, he didn't have any skills to begin with.

Your whole argument is basically the same many have said before: "It's part of the game, learn to live with it!". And it's just as weak as before. Would you please try to come up with an argument that would actually mean something? Saying "we shouldn't change the rules, because the rules are part of the game" is just fucking idiotic. I said in previous posts something along the lines: "TW doesn't fix the flaws in rules." It was somewhat inaccurate. We have changed stuff, we just don't do it enough. Take spawn time or the introduction of time race instead of 20 minute point game. Do you think those were bad changes? If you're ok with those changes, stop fucking saying: "Don't change it. It's part of the game." and come up with real arguments.

Like I mentioned, they've changed the rules a lot in various sports. Take shot clock in basketball for example, since NBA was mentioned before. (If the attacker doesn't attempt to score in 24 seconds, they lose the possession of the ball.) It was introduced in 1954 to make games less boring and to battle the unbalanced strategy of stalling the game by hogging the ball and not attacking if the team was leading. Of course even with hogging to kill the clock the best team would usually win, but the games were less interesting and the losing team had less chances of making a comeback. They weren't saying: "Well, boohoo! It's part of the game, learn to live with it!" They made the improvement and it worked. Wikipedia says: "Some say that this invention 'saved the sport of basketball' as it had begun to lose fans before its inception."