Base map and cramming

[Tsumetai]

Well, doh? Do you think the squads don't try to figure out how to break cram? Because your suggestion assumes squads are now presented with a brand new idea: "Hey! Learn how to break cram!" "Zomg! Why didn't we think of it ourselves! We've been so stupid!" Before, I too was thinking that with time, people might learn how to break cram better, but so far no good. If they have, people have learned to cram better too, which is just natural.

Of course squads haven't been given a fresh new idea to try out, and that's exactly why experienced players are so valuable. Simply put the squad that will win it all will be the squad with the best players at using whatever current strategy there is, while meshing well as a team.

The thing is, it's a lot easier to defend cram than to break it. And the squad's ability cram is emphasized to the level of ridiculousness. Having a 15 minute cram against a squad that's close to your team's skill level is very possible. Beating them in every single fr battle during 15 minutes of constant fr battles isn't.

I really don't know what to say here. Are you seriously suggesting that two squads of near equal skill in all facets of the game, including their attack and defense of cram, could end a fight in a 15:00-00:00 game due to one just getting that "lucky TD" at the beginning?

If the new strategy would be as biased as cram currently is, we'd have to change the map again, but most likely it wouldn't. Did you even play when lining was the thing? Lining wasn't this unfair. Some squads were better at it than others, and it made a difference, but it was broken a lot easier, so the whole game wasn't focused on it. It was just a part of the game, not the main thing, like cram is. I have no idea how you think you can claim that there has to be a defence strategy that will be as one-sided as cram currently is.

I don't think a cram strategy is nearly as one-sided as you think, so it's entirely believable for me that people will come up with just as flawed maps.

People saying: "Hey! Just learn to break it! It's part of the game and both teams have equal chances so best should win anyways." aren't really thinking it through. How about this... We make a map with only one long tube leading to fr, 2 blocks wide. Then ban the sharks. So the game would be decided after the first terr kill, since it would be impossible to get in with seven spids timing their shots and protecting each others from the one stray bullet that might end up flying to the end. Hey, it would be equal for both teams right?

This isn't about the spectators. Cram is boring for everyone. And it's not even mostly about how boring it is, but how much it's overemphasized and how much it makes luck a factor. Get one lucky terr kill and that's automatically loads of flag time.

Good analogy for showing your point, but bad analogy for actually relating to how cram works. I would totally agree with you if cramming was anywhere near that one-sided, but it really isn't.

For the sake of an example, let's make a simplified model of this. Let's assume the cram always takes the same amount of time to break. So in fr battles, the attacking team has a chance to kill the terr and get the flagroom. The longer the cram, the less there are chances. This was my point in the "long tube"-example. With it, there's only one chance. So if a squad sucks, and wins fr battles 30% of the time, but can hold the cram, they still win 30% of the games even though they were clearly much worse. If the winning team has to win two fr battles (because the cram takes so long to break) that same squad will only win 21.6% of the games. With three fr battles, the number is 16.3% and with more fr battles the number just goes down. If you really want and can't do math, I can explain how I got those numbers.

Yeah, I guess that explains why Dice have any wins this season (I kid, I kid, you guys are incredibly good at basing, and the smart bet is still on you guys to win another title).

Again, I'll have to say you've got a nice theory there, but I don't really see a good example of a squad that sucks that much at FR battles, is that good at cram, and has way more wins than it should. And I think I know why you haven't provided any examples: you don't want to piss said squad off if you were to name a current one, and you'd end up in a never-ending argument of "You only won because the strategy is so biased" vs. "You severly underestimate us, jackass!" And you know why it'd be never-ending? Because the damn thing is so subjective. You can't quantify skill of an individual player and you can't quantify how well a group of players works as a team in cold hard numbers. The only fairly objective way of measuring a squad's skill level is to have them compete with other squads, and even then you only get a decent idea of how good they are at working that particular map used.

The point is, if a squad sucks that much, they shouldn't win almost any of the games. I'm not saying we should try to remove luck factor altogether, that would be boring too. Not that it's even possible, and squads are always going to have different line up, people having a bad day etc etc... but that's besides the point.

If a squad sucks that much it won't have a chance at holding cram. No squad that gets utterly dominated in FR battles by every other squad in the league is going to be able to win by keeping a cram up that long. The only time they would ever win is by a good bit of luck, and by being on their game while the other squad is underestimating them and fucking around or is just "off" themselves. You treat cram like an ultimate defense that any bunch of semi-competent players could keep up; it's not, it is just the best option available. And really, that's the whole basis for my disagreeing with you. The strategy just does not make up for shitty players.

[Dabram]

try to work as a team
try to use other ships than just spiders

i haven't had a problem with breaking crams ever.

[NL>TERMINATOR]

try to work as a team
try to use other ships than just spiders

i haven't had a problem with breaking crams ever.

Amen,

fr battles make basing fun.
cram makes basing fun.
breaking cram makes basing fun.

Terr getting shrapped in base is part of basing.
Good teaming makes strong cram.
Good teaming and making the right ship changes will eventually break cram.

If those things are going to be changed basing won't become any fun anymore, imo.

Some changes turn out good others won't.

But keep the base map as it is I really see no other map that will be as fun as this map.

But hey peeps got diff opinions

Pz

[Major Crisis]

I think 2 entrances will mess it up really hard... The cram should be changed thats all.

I think most people prefer fr fights above cramming.. so just change that fucking cram.

[freddie]

I'm with ph and kuukunen on this one.

Yea fuck the cram.

[PH]

Change the map to something with more than one entrance. This is really, really obvious.

Which means it will be completely ignored in favor of continuing to put the vast majority of players and spectators to sleep with five-spider cramfests. Hooray!

[Necromotic]

Cheese :wub:

[Noah]

Less cram, more base.

[Ronn]

Cramming is a skill and it takes the whole team not just sharks, if you dont like the cram then experiment with specials work out a way to defeat it. I think if you made a new entrance and changed the system of basing then alot of people will leave, why change a perfectly good game.

[Noah]

Cramming is a skill and it takes the whole team not just sharks, if you dont like the cram then experiment with specials work out a way to defeat it. I think if you made a new entrance and changed the system of basing then alot of people will leave, why change a perfectly good game.

Thank you for sharing your vast basing veteran knowledge with us. PH, phred and kuuk, you guys just got told by Ronn about how to break the cram. Go do it.

[Vykromond]

No one's saying cram is not a skill. Stop stroking your silly electronic penises. Yes, cram is skill-testing. It's also boring. Take a survey of basers and ask them if they have more fun holding a cram or fighting in the flagroom. The game is more dynamic and enjoyable when the ships can actually move rather than the extremely limited range of motion in the cram. If you want the game to stay fun you should emphasize the fun things and deemphasize boring shit. Otherwise you're just being complacent in atrophy.

edit:

And after a while of this people will bitch again about it being "boring" or some bullshit like that and would want to change the map yet again.

What's wrong with that? Even in the "worst case," wouldn't it be interesting and skill-testing to change the map for every season? You'd learn which squads can adapt their strategy to varying environmental factors and which can't.

[Emaho]

I'm with ph and kuukunen on this one.

Yeah, It's way too easy to hold a base today. Let's do something about already!

[Noah]

This could be translated to other game tournaments as well.

If you were forced to play the same map in every clan match in a fps, where the choke point would be exactly the same for the defending team each game, it would get boring.

Same with any other fps game, or rts game.

Almost every other game out there refreshes itself by adding new maps into competetive games. Our new maps is just thrown into a already unused pool of maps, and never seen again.

Both teams will get the same disadvantage when something new shows up, and the most skilled one will learn to adapt and win. Imagine how fun it would be to actually have to sit down and talk real strategy prior to games. This alone might actually get me to play for TWLB again, and I'm positive others would feel the same way as well.

[Ronn]

This could be translated to other game tournaments as well.

If you were forced to play the same map in every clan match in a fps, where the choke point would be exactly the same for the defending team each game, it would get boring.

Same with any other fps game, or rts game.

Almost every other game out there refreshes itself by adding new maps into competetive games. Our new maps is just thrown into a already unused pool of maps, and never seen again.

Both teams will get the same disadvantage when something new shows up, and the most skilled one will learn to adapt and win. Imagine how fun it would be to actually have to sit down and talk real strategy prior to games. This alone might actually get me to play for TWLB again, and I'm positive others would feel the same way as well.

I think the idea of changing the map is good but not for twlb or twbd. They could bring back the basing world cup and or a basing tournament and change the map each round for that. Would be something new or could be just like some organised event.

[Deverse]

Make a new map, test it, and see how the other players think. Doesn't seem like that happens, so maybe someone quit complaining and do something about it?