Twl Amateur League Thread

[DankNuggets]

Your first point is incorrect as well, the ladder doesn't represent the best in TW, everyone knows this. If it did, you're right we wouldn't even need TWL, but the difference is that anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows where they need to be point-wise in order to qualify.

"In the time between the TWD reset to the TWL invititation, the ladder is the end all be all of deciding which teams are better, and that the ranking they are in is infallible."
If you disagree with this, then you are in fact agreeing with me that the ladder isn't the best way to pick all the teams, especially the ones that are on the border of making TWL.
If you agree with this, than you for some reason decided to state otherwise (see above) and i'll end it with that. I disagree, but you didn't listen to that argument to well. maybe you didn't read it, idk. i'll sum it up for you again later.

I think you're just being pissy because you want to give people something they don't deserve because you'll probably end up being one of the people in AML. I have no bias, it doesn't really effect me because I'll beat the 8th and 9th best squads either way. I'll be in one of the best squads in the zone just like every other season.

By definition, if you complete the requirements to get in, you deserve to get in. There's no other objective definition of the word, so keep your opinions on who "deserves" to go in to yourself, since there no better than anyone else's. I'm not so much giving my opinion here as I am stating that if they completed the requirements (being winning AML) that they derserve to get in by definition of the fucking word "derserve". bullshit you have no bias. if you had no bias, then you would be able to address the concerns of others, instead of just ignoring there reasoning and closing your mind.

The negatives have already been discussed in length, see the previous posts.

no, the positives have been discussed at length. you're not discussing anything at all. as a matter of fact if you look back, none of your posts actually dicuss it. there's a few where you quote someone else and say "yeah what about that" or "you still haven't proven to me" without providing an argument or evidence for any of your claims.

It's as simple as this, do you want TWL to be all encompassing and not leaving anyone out, or do you want it to be about competition? The answer for me is simple, make the game competitive or it will die. I don't really have a preference one way or the other on giving the winner of TWLA a TWL spot because there are both pro's and con's to both sides. But what is important, is that the TWL winners get the name of the squad on the map, and the names of all the players on the TWL roster on the map, and the winners of TWLA only get the squad name mentioned on the map. The reasoning is simple, reward for TWL should be greater, because it's the senior league.

I'm all for putting more competitive games into the system and encouraging people to get better to make the games more fun, but you run the same risk as what has happened in elim. Anytime you make something so easy people don't need to work for it, it loses it's muster. Same thing happened with elim when they lowered the usage requirements (well that wasn't the only reason, but It was still a significant factor).

remember saying any of that? like 2 weeks ago you agreed that their were pros and con(s). you've said there's a con w/o proving it, and showed me no pros or support of any of the pro's we've mentioned. You seem more interested in getting your name on a map that like 20 ppl will read. And your problem with elim? how long ago did usage req's go away? how has it ruined elim? stop trying to keep new people out of the game, you're gonna eventually fade away (but maybe you'll have your name somewhere on a map...)

[Zeebu]

it used to be that the semifinalists of the previous year got auto-invited back. semifinalists. not the winners of some lower level league, the semifinalists.

if we are going to start auto inviting again, start with those squads. a lower ranked squad shouldnt be auto-invited to an upper level league. plain and simple right there.

that being said, the winner of the AML league or whatever is probably better than the 8th place squad. but, as most have said... an 8th or 9th place squad has no business being auto-invited.

only the very top squads should have a chance at auto qualification. keep that one thing in mind when deciding what you want. only the very top squads should have the chance for auto qualification.

ive said it several times in the above text, but i will say it one fore time just to drill it home a little deeper: only the very top squads should have the chance for auto-qualification.

[Reaver]

"In the time between the TWD reset to the TWL invititation, the ladder is the end all be all of deciding which teams are better, and that the ranking they are in is infallible."
If you disagree with this, then you are in fact agreeing with me that the ladder isn't the best way to pick all the teams, especially the ones that are on the border of making TWL.
If you agree with this, than you for some reason decided to state otherwise (see above) and i'll end it with that. I disagree, but you didn't listen to that argument to well. maybe you didn't read it, idk. i'll sum it up for you again later.

The TWD qualification system isn't perfect because...think about this hard. Nothing is! Amazing, I know. But it's better than anything you've provided, and I can come up with a rule or two that stops the biggest problems regarding TWD: squads that get points and sit on them to become qualified, squads that only play terrible squads to get qualified. Your logic is terrible, this isn't black and white, so if I disagree that TWD is a flawless system I somehow agree with you? LoL, I'm pretty sure every post I've listed so far has proved otherwise there.

By definition, if you complete the requirements to get in, you deserve to get in. There's no other objective definition of the word, so keep your opinions on who "deserves" to go in to yourself, since there no better than anyone else's. I'm not so much giving my opinion here as I am stating that if they completed the requirements (being winning AML) that they derserve to get in by definition of the fucking word "derserve". bullshit you have no bias. if you had no bias, then you would be able to address the concerns of others, instead of just ignoring there reasoning and closing your mind.

Don't get pissy at me because I'm willing to back up my opinions with facts behind them. You tried saying that I was biased when I just proved that it doesn't effect me because I'll be in one of the best squads in the zone. Whether we play the 8th or 9th best squad in TW makes no difference to me. I've pretty much adressed the concerns here with my previous posts. You just refuse to acknowledge the fact that it makes no sense to give a reward to the winners of a weak league the same reward you want to give the winners of a better league. See my previous posts for other reason, though I know you won't.

no, the positives have been discussed at length. you're not discussing anything at all. as a matter of fact if you look back, none of your posts actually dicuss it. there's a few where you quote someone else and say "yeah what about that" or "you still haven't proven to me" without providing an argument or evidence for any of your claims.

Question: What's the best way to win an argument you've already lost? Pretend the argument doesn't exist. Pretend it's a one way street. Damn, impressive.

remember saying any of that? like 2 weeks ago you agreed that their were pros and con(s). you've said there's a con w/o proving it, and showed me no pros or support of any of the pro's we've mentioned. You seem more interested in getting your name on a map that like 20 ppl will read. And your problem with elim? how long ago did usage req's go away? how has it ruined elim? stop trying to keep new people out of the game, you're gonna eventually fade away (but maybe you'll have your name somewhere on a map...)

You don't comprehend much do you? When I clearly state one of the reasons for why lowering the elim usage hurt elim, you ignore it. I don't need to respond to anything you say anymore because I've already provided enough information in this thread to prove that there's an alternative to what you're suggesting that makes more sense. Additionally, I don't argue with brick walls. Next time you decide to debate something, at least try to tackle your opponents argument instead of acting like they don't exist.

Finally, I don't know you, so don't act like you know me. I've been staff in this zone longer than you've been playing, I ran TWD for a year. Don't put your foot in the door and act like you know how the zone works.

[Exalt]

since you guys are turning this into a trash talk thread im going to redirect both of your efforts here into something constructive

reaver you say there should be no auto qual, but you agree AML is a good idea and they should be given "something" as a "gift" for winning.

then reaver, you tell me what it should be and how it should be implemented.

Dank you too, state something that could be done aside from giving auto-qual


at first everyone liked the auto-qual idea but not everyones jumping bandwagons and saying the opposite, and so we need a viable solution to this

if your going to criticize, then help with the solutions too, because its not like im getting any staff help doing this, just SS members with staff eventually taking on the finished product

[Downfall]

Does there even have to be a prize?

I say run AML for squads to play each other with a big crowd watching them like twl right? 50 + then those who accel in AML will show their skill to TWL squads and eventually get on one of them. Cuz im pretty sure there are many skilled players on bad squads but no one knows them because no one watches their matches so ya AML just could be a way for talented players in a lower tier squad to show their skills to others.

[midoent]

df, you honestly think people will spec aml? i dont expect more speccers than in average twbds.

As for the reward for winning twl, is bragging rights, being the best squad in the season.

Reaver, the key for aml is to make that 9th squad (which might have lucked out of twl qualifications, like you said system isnt perfect and never will be) not dissolve, but participate in aml for better competition there and have an incentive to do so, instead of everyone on that squad going inactive, moving to twl squads.

AML is a new thing, and I believe its in best interests of the zone to have mid tier - lower mid tier squads interested in it too.

[DankNuggets]

Ok, i understand how giving something to a lower team doesn't make sense. The only reason I even agree to give it to the AML winner is that they need something to strive for, and it would do good to boost them to a higher level of competition. No need to refute that, just say that it would happen naturally without autoqualification, because it should. Therefore, I guess autoqualification isn't necessary, for much the same reason you would say that it isn't necessary for the runner-up (they should make it back anyway).

Given that the two leagues are run from the same ladder, and that one is viewed as a lower league that feeds into the other one, it's natural and common place to see a system that advances certain squads or teams and demotes others. This is the logic that's being used with the autoqualification idea, but there's one thing that's flawed with it. In sports, there are set teams, one can't just start a team in whatever league they like. In TWD, you can basically do this, if you can create a team that will go straight to TWL. The system in TWL/AML isn't currently set up to favor a promotion/demotion system like that in football, and that's where I concede the greatest counter arguement for it.

Basically the idea was to mold TWL into a more realistic, multi-tier league, with the intention of improving the playerbase and expanding the number of competitve teams. Can you really argue with those intentions? If you want to keep it to the same 5-6 teams every year, keep it the way it is. If you want to introduce more teams and bring TWL to more people, change it. There's two directions you can take when talking about changing something or keeping it the same, it is black or white.

If you can change it to accomplish those goals without autoqualification, go ahead. You say you can fix the two problems you had with TWL, go ahead, you seem to have the connections and i'm sure people would back it.

And ftr, i'm not in favor of auto-qualifing a team a year or a season in advance. If it was in place, it'd like to see AML run directly before TWL, and then the winner would basically just continue it's season into TWL. Now that I better understand how you'd go about autoqualification, i'm not as staunchly in support of it.

[Lizard Fuel]

This may have been said already, but Im not going back to read the 50 posts I have missed, but here's my opinion....

Try thinking of AML like you would College Baseball, or even Minor League Baseball....College teams have a complete season, and play a world series, just like the big dogs do. The winning team of that world series does not get invited to join the pros, but instead gives the individual players a chance to shine, and thus providing an opportunity to be scouted by a "Big League Team"...These AML players will slowly start to replace the TWL players, as most of us are getting older and won't be playing forever (ofc there are exceptions[e.g. Ward])

To those of you that don't feel like reading my paragraph, I'll make it even simpler....

1) AML winners have 2 or 3 standout performers
2) Those 2-3 people get recruited onto lowly TWL squads (Fuse, Quicksand, Plade)
3) Those 2-3 people get a chance to play in TWL, at their capts discretion.

Offer the reward for the people who earn it, and leave it up to the TWL squads on exactly who they want to "reward" And make a map with season winners, just like TWL. Thats my 2 cents

[DankNuggets]

after thinking about it for awhile, i've come to the conclusion that auto qualification isn't an option I'm in favor of anymore. I'm no longer in favor becuase I now think that no team should be autoqualified, even the previous winner and runner up.

*One side argues that the autobid should be given to the winner or runner up. The logic here is that they don't need to go through qualification since they won last time, and will likely be a top contender again. fine, that's one way to look at it.

*Another side argues that the autobid should go to the winner of the AML playoffs. The logic here is that they proved that they are better than all non TWL competetion and should therefore be included in with TWL level teams. another good way to look at it.

The problem is that while these sides both have positives about them, there are also negatives which seem to override all the positives in everyone else's mind. Therefore, I don't see a compromise to the situation, so maybe no one should get an auto bid.

[DankNuggets]

This may have been said already, but Im not going back to read the 50 posts I have missed, but here's my opinion....

Try thinking of AML like you would College Baseball, or even Minor League Baseball....College teams have a complete season, and play a world series, just like the big dogs do. The winning team of that world series does not get invited to join the pros, but instead gives the individual players a chance to shine, and thus providing an opportunity to be scouted by a "Big League Team"...These AML players will slowly start to replace the TWL players, as most of us are getting older and won't be playing forever (ofc there are exceptions[e.g. Ward])

To those of you that don't feel like reading my paragraph, I'll make it even simpler....

1) AML winners have 2 or 3 standout performers
2) Those 2-3 people get recruited onto lowly TWL squads (Fuse, Quicksand, Plade)
3) Those 2-3 people get a chance to play in TWL, at their capts discretion.

Offer the reward for the people who earn it, and leave it up to the TWL squads on exactly who they want to "reward" And make a map with season winners, just like TWL. Thats my 2 cents

don't take this the wrong way -

but that's a horrible comparison, college teams couldn't have played in MLB from the start of the season, like an AML team could have. First of all, there doesn't exist a league like twl, where a set # of teams start at teh same level, and then a select group are picked to participate in a league, while presumably the rest are put in another league. Every sports league has a predetermined league for each team, even if the possibility for switching leagues exists, it isn't feasible to do it like you can in TWD.

2nd, i like to view this as not just a way to get a few players to squad hop to existing twl level squads, but as a way for squads on the verge of being twl caliber to get good enough to bridge the gap. If the good players leave, where does it leave that champion squad? to dissovle?

[DankNuggets]

Exalt you still working on this? I'm willing to help where i can, though i admit it might not be that much.

In light of the recent accusations of moving too fast in the BWC and DT, it wouldn't hurt to give this as much time to plan as possible.

[Exalt]

Exalt you still working on this? I'm willing to help where i can, though i admit it might not be that much.

In light of the recent accusations of moving too fast in the BWC and DT, it wouldn't hurt to give this as much time to plan as possible.

i havent recieved any help from people that keep saying they would... so its kind of in a stasis right now... if i know i will recieve help in terms of a website and things like that, then yes this will keep going

[Exalt]

Bumping this thread, because it is still a good idea, and fuck you

I don't care who runs it or what happens, but its a good idea that a lot of people agreed upon.... why can't we get this done? I'm sure staff can hire enough hosts or w/e to do some kind of amateur league

[pascone]

here's why it's a bad idea

the 'good players' would create aliases and play on these amateur squads. someone probably said this already. but this is what would happen and it would be useless

[Exalt]

here's why it's a bad idea

the 'good players' would create aliases and play on these amateur squads. someone probably said this already. but this is what would happen and it would be useless

not hard to alias check