Some javelin theory to ponder about

[LaG KiLLeR]

Personally I would break each league down into 3 categories, a 4th would be lag but I'm just going to assume that is constant for all leagues and rule it out of this. Skill: Obviously every league hinges on the skill of the players and what degree of mastery they have in their ship. Some more so than others imo. Teamwork: Teaming is an essential aspect in each league, but to far greater degrees in some than others. Awareness: In honor of ph on this one who tells our spiders their madden AWR score would be 5, this is somewhat what kim was talking about. A conceptual understanding of strategies, shot angles, each ship and player's role etc. etc.

WBs: 50% skill 35% teaming 15% AWR - Skill is the dominant factor in WBs, and anyone who denies it is stupid imo. Teaming can make up for significant portions of skill, but a skillful team that teams to its maximum potential is unbeatable. Conceptually there is some needed in wbs, but I feel it is the least conceptual game. It is not as if I am saying that dumbasses play wb, I am just putting it in comparison to the other leagues in which I think you have to be a bit more cognizant and a little less reactionary.

Javs: 40% skill 30% teaming 20% AWR - I put teaming on par with skill in javs for my own personal beliefs that you can out-team a better squad in javs. Take it or leave it. I don't feel there is much to explain here, but I can go into further depth if people want me to. I think conceptually there is a lot more to take account for due to the extra dimensions of the game (i.e. wall bounce, bullets, walls, explosion radius etc. etc.) as opposed to wbs where it is thrust, bullets, and asteroids.

Basing: 40% skill 30% Teaming 30% AWR - What can I say, dice has had the best players and has won, that's simple facts. Thus i cannot knock skill from being the dominant factor in basing. Teamwork is an absolute necessity in basing seeing how you essentially need 8 people on the exact same page constantly to be remotely successful on a high level of competition. However I think basing is far and away more of a thinkers game, there is much more strategy and much more to take account for due to the increase of players and the variance of ship.

In terms of your breakdown specifics, you also have to operationally define each of those criteria, "trust", "skill", "teaming", etc. Because some people are better skilled than others, some people are better at teaming than others, some are more trusting than others, there's no set standards....which makes it difficult to throw up percentages because each influence one another...you'd have to go into multiple linear regression and some other statistical applications to make sure that no two variables influence each other on the outcome, which in this case seems to be the outcome, victory.

To provide an illustration, let's say teams follow the statistical breakdown (following a 100-pt scale, and let's make it simple and focus on one variable, skill):

You can have one team (TEAM1) of 5 players A, B, C, D & E.

Player A - 50 skill
B - 50 skill
C - 50 skill
D - 50 skill
E - 100 skill

TEAM1's average skill is: 60 (300/5).

Another team (TEAM2) with players F, G, H, I, & J.

Player F - 60 skill
G - 60 skill
H - 60 skill
I - 60 skill
J - 60 skill

TEAM2's average is also 60.

Just looking at the numbers, you might automatically assume that TEAM1 would destroy TEAM2 because of that one skilled player, the outlier....at the same time, TEAM2 might be better at killing or teaming because all the players are better skilled than 4/5 of the players on TEAM1....

So, things have to be appropriately defined so we're working with one universal definition. What determines one's skills, how do you test for skill, etc. We'd have to factor in consistency too, so we'd have to make this more of a longitudinal study to make sure people's skills are stable...not just one-time deals, etc.

[Kim]

I guess my theory only applies when we're talking about likelihood to freeze an opponent in your shot.

This thread really digressed into many different styles of play and ways to play the javelin, which is cool. I didn't wish for the thread to be about what I had originally proposed in my first post.

Escape routes as brought up by Summa, environmental factors and looking at radar by Singer, and baiting as brought up by LK are all interesting discussion topics.

The thing with escape routes is that, if you know them, so does your opponent. What makes an escape route work is that you shouldn't give away which direction you plan to take until the last possible moment, after your opponent has made his/her "move of no return" as I like to call it. Whether it be a slight thrust one way, or their second set of bullets delivered, it is a "tell" that lets you know they have locked onto the fact that "yes, you are confirmed to be going this way". That's when you effectively prove them wrong, and punch them in the gut figuratively with your escape. The successful rate of survival of an escape rate is different according to the situation and to the player (if its 1 on 1). Ever notice that when you are 1 player, up against 3, those 3 are more scared to bomb in risk of tk'ing their own player. That information can be used to your advantage. When you're going up 1v1, really good players won't expect you to go with the most expected escape route, so it works, but that can't be abused. Bait shots work here as well, so do "persuasive bullets". Believe it or not, but you can influence where the enemy will go in his next movement by slight details such as ship movement, direction, but more directly with bombs and bullets that don't necessarily have to deal any damage whatsoever. Luring an enemy into a vulnerable position, or sometimes even luring an enemy into a weak one who is about to be vulched COULD prove to be beneficial to your team, because those enemy ships have not been communicating, and they do not know each other's energy levels. Trouble is bound to happen for them.

When singer brought up about being in tune with your surroundings, he meant in his post that you can maintain solid teamwork without being on the same screen as them, which works well because it decreases the chance you'll be 2fered, and it gives you the element of surprise that you can use on your opponent when you suddenly join your teammate on bulleting an enemy from the side that he expected to escape from. I want to talk about something else though, about the environmental factors. I don't think enough people realize that in every jd, you will see two or three opportunities where random strays or situational circumstances causes something awkward to happen that makes everyone do a double-take on it and ask themselves if it really just happened like that. Examples: players bombing themselves, players accidently bombing their teammates but not killing them, effectively taking both those players out of commission and making them highly vulnerable because the player who just shot that ridiculous shot must be shitting himself thinking why he did something that stupid, taking his concentration off anything else. The teammate who got bombed is also low in energy but also somewhat frustrated with his team, so it makes that player easier to kill than normal. Other things like rushing players who just tk'd could be taken more seriously, and can result in a base clear if used properly to your advantage.

That's all I got for now.

[Izor]

WBs: 50% skill 35% teaming 15% AWR - Skill is the dominant factor in WBs, and anyone who denies it is stupid imo. Teaming can make up for significant portions of skill, but a skillful team that teams to its maximum potential is unbeatable. Conceptually there is some needed in wbs, but I feel it is the least conceptual game. It is not as if I am saying that dumbasses play wb, I am just putting it in comparison to the other leagues in which I think you have to be a bit more cognizant and a little less reactionary.

I would argue that skill teamwork and awareness are all 33.3%. You're not going to be able to execute if your team isnt on the same page as you most of the time. If your team is chasing around someone 3 or 4v1 like idiots you're not going to get many kills and youre going to die quickly - no amount of skill can make up for that, at least not around other wbs in the same class. If you dont kill people on 9 deaths and/or dont play more defensively on 9 deaths you will put your team in a hole that is hard to recover from. A lot goes into a wb game. Sometimes Ive seen/been part of a team that doesnt team well but dominates by pure skill. Sometimes I've seen/been a part of a team that doesnt aim or dodge very well but gets a lot of 3v1 rushes on people and manages to cover up a lack of aim. And sometimes I've seen/been a part of a team that isnt really teaming or aiming well, but manages to have their people on 9 stay in and get a 4v2 and just stray to win. In fact, I'd argue that awareness is even more important because if you actually watch TWLD you'll see a very good number of games this season where it is close until the first person dies out.

[PaulOakenfold]

Either you guys are really high, or you're not taking simple things into account. Teaming is and will ever be the most important part of LD/LJ/LB. There is no arbitrary percentage you can put on it or any skill. The most successful TWLJ squad as of late hasn't even responded and for good reason; most of the TWL 'skill' comes from reading and teaming.

Maybe you should stop trying to read your own skill and start trying to read your teamates' skill.

[paradise!]

Believe it or not, but you can influence where the enemy will go in his next movement by slight details such as ship movement, direction, but more directly with bombs and bullets that don't necessarily have to deal any damage whatsoever. Luring an enemy into a vulnerable position, or sometimes even luring an enemy into a weak one who is about to be vulched COULD prove to be beneficial to your team, because those enemy ships have not been communicating, and they do not know each other's energy levels. Trouble is bound to happen for them.

People like Eelam actually do this a lot--so i've seen- and it really works. When were playing pandora none of my squadmates could understand how they were dying, all refused to look back at why they died. They are all thinking that Eelam just bulleted the wrong way, when in fact he is leading them to a spot where his teammates, who have full energy, are in a prime position to bomb.

That's why he is probably one of the smartest player's ive seen on this game. What really takes skill in killing is knowing the awkwardness of a ship's direction. If the ship is turned in a way that moving forward or side to side is very difficult you would bomb to his weak side.
There are many little tricks you pick up like this from just screwing around. The perfect place to do this is ?go javs. I've been playing there since at least 2004 and is the sole reason i'm at least pretty good. Being able to try out new techniques, rushing, and many other things, really helps our in general. Again, most in this thread will not give away their little secrets, I have a few of my own, but I will not give them away easily (paypal, gogogogo).

[Money]

too many warbirds in a jav thread

[Oops]

too many warbirds in a jav thread

This thread gets an 11/10 on the nerd scale

[Draft]

People like Eelam actually do this a lot--so i've seen- and it really works. When were playing pandora none of my squadmates could understand how they were dying, all refused to look back at why they died. They are all thinking that Eelam just bulleted the wrong way, when in fact he is leading them to a spot where his teammates, who have full energy, are in a prime position to bomb.

That's why he is probably one of the smartest player's ive seen on this game. What really takes skill in killing is knowing the awkwardness of a ship's direction. If the ship is turned in a way that moving forward or side to side is very difficult you would bomb to his weak side.

I'd suck eelam's dick.

[Lag.Com]

I'd rather give away all of my secrets publically, then get owned, knowing that finally there are some all-around good javelins in TW once again.

[Epinephrine]

It's an interesting theory, and something that I've thought about for a very long time. In fact, back in the days I used to send out detailed e-mails to my squad about positioning and so on.

Much like many professional sports, this game really is about positioning. For instance, one of the most interesting things that people have said about Wayne Gretzky was that 'he never skated towards where the puck was, but he skated towards where the puck was going to be'. This has been my philosophy in Subspace (all arenas) for a long time.

The fact that this hasn't been a subject in TW until this thread is because of the unique nature of this zone and the fact that TW is a one-hit one-kill zone, which makes it so that even people with absolutely no sense of position can be reasonable players if they have good aim. As an example you can think of every single team in TWLD that relies on the strategy of 'rushing' as if that was actually a good way to play.

Anyone who has ever played other zones, especially ones with more SVS-like settings, would have seen the importance of positioning almost as a requirement of play from day one.

But I digress.

I think in terms of the original post by Kim, I think that all good players will make that sort of calculation in their heads when playing. It is pretty obvious whenever you play someone good in Javs is that if they are running from you, they will always only run in paths that your bombs cannot possibly reach. The even better players run in paths your bombs cannot possibly reach AND have a good chance of quickly bouncing back and reversing position at you, if you decide to shoot them anyway so that they can get an easy kill.

The best players meanwhile, will take it the next step further, which is to run where you cannot shoot, be prepared to turn back if you make a stupid shot, and also expose themselves to situations where a kill is possible by you, thus luring you to do a shot, so that they can kill you.

To put in the reverse, when you are being chased by a normal player, they will rely on good aim to kill you. When you are being chased by a good player, they will shoot to where they think you will likely be, and let either a direct hit or a proximity explosion kill you as you run away.

The best players meanwhile, will take it the next step further. They will frequently put some bullets or even bombs into a certain direction, thus stopping you from running a certain way and making you run into a predictable way of their choosing, so that they can trap you and go in for the kill.


I think this is a good way to look at it. If we're going to go by the old percentages thing that Kim talks about, we're only going to be talking about the very good players, but never the best. In my opinion, having played with some of the best jav players ever in the zone, the very best will always be infinitely adaptable to any situation. They do not rely on set shots or knowing one or two things.

For instance, Psymorph who was used in the original example, would never let the situation be this 95%/5% thing. Instead, he would create his own opportunities, and manage the situation according to his will. What does this mean? It doesn't even mean thinking to himself 'oh if I do this shot I will have a 95% chance of a kill' anymore, but instead it's a 'I will do this shot, make the guy run this way, and then when he's in the new spot, I will shoot again and kill him'.

Whether or not Psymorph does this consciously or not you'd have to ask him, but all the top players do such a thing.


This is compounded even further within a team atmosphere. As many have said, in leagues teamwork vastly outweighs anything else. I know this personally, as a pretty average jav player, but multiple winner of TWLJ.

When in a team environment, the good teams, will have 5 people who can aim and shoot decently. The very good teams, will have a few people who can effectively be very good or even top players, creating situations for themselves to take advantage of while the other generally good players manage to stay alive and do their share.

The absolute best teams, the championship teams are at another level altogether. When the very best play, it is no longer about personal skill, but how well the entire team works as a unit. There is no overriding strategy that good teams might all use, as they are all different, but it is a matter of finding out exactly the strengths and weaknesses of each player and using that to the best advantage.

I will use myself as an example. When Elusive won the first ever TWLJ, I played every single playoff game. Being a pretty average jav player myself who only relied on decent aim, I changed my style of play to suit the team. Aside for easy kills, my entire role was to lure the enemy into awkward situations for Psymorph to make the kill. Of course Psymorph obliged accordingly. Other players on the team filled other roles, such as guarding alternate exit routes for running players, 'spamming' the arena with bullets to limit the running possibilites, and so on.

When everyone works together, it is very possible to limit the enemy to certain parts of the map by bomb/bullet spam. And then it is possible to predict all the places where they could possible shoot at. And then it is possible to lure them into shooting. And then it is possible to as a team, shoot strategically into them to clump them up, leaving them open to 2fers, 3fers and easy kills by the most skilled player(s) of your team.

That is how the very best teams play in TWLJ.

Oh and TWLD is no different.

[LaG KiLLeR]

It's an interesting theory, and something that I've thought about for a very long time. In fact, back in the days I used to send out detailed e-mails to my squad about positioning and so on.

Much like many professional sports, this game really is about positioning. For instance, one of the most interesting things that people have said about Wayne Gretzky was that 'he never skated towards where the puck was, but he skated towards where the puck was going to be'. This has been my philosophy in Subspace (all arenas) for a long time.

You bring up a point that's fairly exercised amongst the skilled javelins, to be able to read where an opponent will go. And based on their opponent's position, skilled javelins can read and not guess, but know for certain which direction his opponent will go.

Position is a pretty interesting concept overall, like you mentioned with psymorph, you can control where you want your opponent to go. You can do this with the direction of a displaced bullet, with the shot of a bomb, or (as kim mentioned) without even using any energy...using intimidation with your presence and the position of your ship (including tip of the javelin's nose, or the javelin's back where bullets fly out).


We've been talking about offensive position, but defensive position is just as crucial. In terms of defensive strategy, I've always found it best to keep your ship parallel to your opponent's ship. While skilled javelins may find opportunities to shoot "finesse" shots (high-angled shots with/without holes, etc; a standard javelin's non-typical shot selection), the majority of javelins will automatically try to turn the tip of their nose or the back of their javelin at you to attack. So I've found this parallel position to increase survival, and an opportunity to replenish energy.

Furthermore, if your opponent does succeed and gets his ship to be orthogonal (perpendicular) to yours (with either the front/back of his ship aiming towards yours), you have three options: to thrust forward, to thrust backwards, or to stay still. Of course, if you choose to stay still, you can't just be a sitting duck, you still need to tap up and down repeatedly while holding shift. And using your opponent's position, you can almost read where he/she will shoot.

A last thing I'd like to add comes from experience with many situations, I've always found that the best javs don't give their shot away until the last moment. To illustrate, most of the times, the tip of the nose of an average javelin will be aimed directly at the position of his/her opponent...all the time. When the defensive javelin moves up, the tip of the nose of the average javelin will follow upwards...and vice versa when the defensive javelin moves down. But skilled javelins (like psymorph or joe, people remember joe right?) wouldn't necessarily aim at you the whole time, but when the opportunity came to be seized, they would make a haste move to turn their ship and fire a bomb which would likely catch you off guard and kill you...and they never gave their shot away. It's hard to verbally explain, and I can't draw it out here....so I'm sorry if I've only confused anyone.

But this quick movement can result to big rewards, like in TWLJ games, an instant 2fer. When you're the offensive javelin chasing an enemy with low energy, you might follow him into his teammates "hood". Keeping your focus on him while baiting his teammates to come support him, you quickly switch your shot and kill his teammate (when they're close enough, the original intendee will die too cause of his low energy level). You might die, you might suicide but the rewards are better, with the base being 4 v 3 inside to your advantage, you only need to make sure you survive going to base (just don't fire a bomb outside). This wasn't the best example of not giving your shot away, but more so a small example of catching people off guard with a haste move!

[Money]

This thread gets an 11/10 on the nerd scale

CHANGE UR SQUAD TITLE BITCH

[paradise!]

proves how mature you are phizey, I mention one person who I thought was good, you link it to dicks.
<_<

can't expect much from a kid who thinks radiation is an element, and asks squadmates what the graph x squared looks like.

parabola'd

[Draft]

haha gayboy's all mad now :<:<

paradise, you don't have to hide your homosexuality anymore by changing the subject lol, everyone already knows

btw what a nice thread by my dawg ks dont u think para?

http://forums.trenchwars.org/showthread.php?t=28892

The fact that Para had the pornography on his screen for long enough that his mom could walk in and realize it was on his screen shows me that he was at least interested in watching it.

pz

oh wait forgot 1 thing, your IP is 139.424.1.12 (thx maisoul)

[Chuckle]

if you actually watch TWLD you'll see a very good number of games this season where it is close until the first person dies out.

oh wow thank you captain obvious
now that we got that clear why do you suicide out the way you do