Possible addition to the rules...

[Bigwig]

Originally posted by death row
I think alot of you guys have good points. But heres mine: I say let the public have a right to watch any match they please. It adds excitement to the game ect. Also, its a good way to simulate a real life playoff game. Usually playoff games attract big crowds and the players have to prove they can play under the spotlight. It adds a nice twist to the game, if you ask me. Keep it the way it is. [=

that would be great, if it didn't cause lag.

[Jason]

I see where you're coming from drow. Everyone who's said lots of spectators is more fun and adds to the excitement and all hasn't been wrong. For me though, and apparently for others as they've said they lag too, it's a matter of function over fun. All those spectators are having a negative impact on the in-game players. And, utlimately, what's more important? Pleasing the crowd or running a fair-n-square league? You can't always make everyone happy, and when it comes right down to it, the fellas playing the match take precedence.

[Mayo Inc.]

Originally posted by Jason
And, utlimately, what's more important? Pleasing the crowd or running a fair-n-square league? You can't always make everyone happy, and when it comes right down to it, the fellas playing the match take precedence.

We disagree, I think the spectators minor lag is worth it. You say it is just spectators Vs. players but it isn't; it's minor lag vs. spectator fun. It is a different degree between the two. You can't just simplify it to Spectators Vs. Players because that isn't how it is.


And don't take yourself so seriously.

EDIT: Fukc, I will never be able to type this out again, this is Mattey sorry for any confusion.


EDIT 2: MATTEY MATTEY MATTEY MATTEY MATTEY MATTEY MATTEY MATTEY MATTEY


To avoid confusion.

[Jason]

That's just it though... it isn't minor lag at all. If I'm trying to play a match with 100+ spectators, I will spike like crazy. This doesn't happen in arenas with a much smaller number of spectators. I guess I'm not accurately describing just how bad it really is from my side of things. Some people say spectator lag is just an urban myth, but I swear to god it's not. It definitely has enough of an impact on me as to make the game unfair. I'm on dialup, and there are hundreds of other players out there on dialup as well. I can't be the only one who's affected like this. A few who lag like me due to spectators have spoken up, but there has to be more, I'm sure. =/

[Webbb Llama v1.5]

It seems selfish to limit spectators because you dont want to buy a better connection

[Ara]

Dial-up from Finland

I've been using a dial-up for a few weeks now, I had to move
to a new apartment and haven't bought a cable connection yet.
I haven't noticed any difference between normal public arena play
and the one league match I played in that had over 80
speccers watching, Light vs Spastic TWLB.
I took the MVP in that match.

But with a dial-up it's always a bit kinky thing to play,
its ping and latency can sometimes have mysterious ways.

For example, right now, I can't get a ping from the TW server
even though I've been connected for over 20 minutes.
Still says PING Current:0 ms Average:0 ms Low:0 ms High:0 ms S2C: 2.6% C2S: 0.0%

So it might just be a coincidence you've had lag problems in the
(few?) times you've played a league game that's had over 80 or
100+ speccers?

There is a limit to the league arenas, it used to be around 100,
don't know what it is now. By capping league arenas and not
making the league show availible for everyone's entertainment
in such a growing zone like Trench Wars would not do much
damage. It would have a neutral impact on the leagues and
TW's population. But, the way leagues are run now (TWD, TWL,
etc.) has had a huge positive effect on our population.
We've never had this many players and it's atleast partially
due to the huge success of the leagues.
On weekends some people come online just to watch league
matches!

The show must go on.

[Ara]

Dial-up from Finland

Zeus!!, ZH+ can enter any arena that's full.

[bloodzombie]

Re: Dial-up from Finland

Originally posted by Ara
I've been using a dial-up for a few weeks now, I had to move
to a new apartment and haven't bought a cable connection yet.
I haven't noticed any difference between normal public arena play
and the one league match I played in that had over 80
speccers watching, Light vs Spastic TWLB.
I took the MVP in that match.

There might be a connection between your dial-up from finland and your ability to take MVP.

[Jason]

Originally posted by Webbb Llama v1.5
It seems selfish to limit spectators because you dont want to buy a better connection

C'mon Webbb... don't be so ignorant. Broadband connections simply aren't available in every part of the world. The only semi-affordable "better connection" I could hope to buy in my area is 112k ISDN, which is an outrageous $85/month. I, a poor college student, just can't afford that, no way, no how.

Ara, I was actually thinking the same thing. Perhaps my dialup has just been acting up lately. Indeed, it has acted up in the past, and it was in fact giving me some trouble over the last three days or so. This problem isn't related to the quirkiness of my dialup though. I've tweaked the living shit out of my modem such that I can maintain consistent sub 150ms pings with little to no packetloss in any arena with an average number of spectators. Add in 100+ spectators and all hell breaks loose. Maybe it's not the spectators creating the lag after all, but I just don't know what other conclusion can be drawn. :/

[Webbb Llama v1.5]

I find it hard to believe that near your college in Pennsylvania there is no affordable broadband.

[Verthanthi]

His college is in New York, unless he lied when he said he was at RIT. That said, he's on summer break, I think.

Even if he does have high-speed internet at his hometown, I don't know of any ISPs that don't contract for at least a year. So unless his parents pay for it for the 9 monthes he's at school, he'll be paying about $450 for something he can't use at all.

I don't agree with him, however. I don't think the lag increase is signifigant enough to warrant not allowing people to spec. I may change my mind, however, once playoffs begin. The TWLB Cup had such enormous lag that it wasn't worth playing. I don't know if that was caused by speccers or what, but if that comes again I will approve of any measure taken to decrease lag.

[Jason]

Yes, Shade's correct. I go to school at the Rochester Institute of Technology. My permanent residence is in Montrose, PA though. It's a small town in Northeastern PA. There are more cows than people here, and there certainly isn't any available broadband.

I suppose my suggestion isn't even being taken into consideration. Oh well... we'll see what happens come playoff time I suppose.

[bloodzombie]

Personally, I've never noticed a connection between spectators and lag, but if there is one, I agree with you jason.. unless it only really effects people with dialup, then I say fuck em, becuase there's so few left.. why fuck everyone else to accommodate the 3 people who can't get broadband?

Isn't there a way to measure how much lag spectators cause?

[MaGi kOz]

Originally posted by bloodzombie
Personally, I've never noticed a connection between spectators and lag, but if there is one, I agree with you jason.. unless it only really effects people with dialup, then I say fuck em, becuase there's so few left.. why fuck everyone else to accommodate the 3 people who can't get broadband?

Isn't there a way to measure how much lag spectators cause?

I'm guessing the more people in a an arena, the more packets being sent to and from each and every single person in that arena, playing or specced. Since alot of packets are being tossed around, it's takes longer for packets to move to the server and back to the players. Even people in spec cause lag because when they send messages through the chat, it has to go through the server first and to the players. The same server that the players in the league games are using to send the information of their bullets to the server to let them know that it hit another ship. But since all these text messages are being sent as well, the information of the bullet hit will take longer. It will then appear to the shooter that it hit but once the information of the shot bullet gets to the person that got "hit", it would have been too late and it would appear on his screen as a miss. That would mean a no kill/ death.

If that was confusing. Just think about it... it's common sense. More people means more information that needs to be sent (bullets or spectator chat messages) and the more that needs to be sent, the laggier. It's that simple.

[geekbot]

The chat uses very little bandwidth. It's the location, direction, etc. of all the players, bullets, mines, explosions, etc. that take up all the bandwidth. The bandwidth used up is shared for all of TW since all arenas are on the same server.

So if there's a cap on people in spec those players would still be using bandwidth since they would probably just go to other arenas. A spec cap would reduce lag only if:

1) The people who couldn't spec a match logged out.

or

2) The arenas they go to instead of the match arena uses less bandwidth. E.g. everyone in ?go afk is using very little BW b/c there is no action in the arena. Pubs have less action (less bullets, mines, reps) but more players (20-30 v 16).

Other solutions would be better than spec cap (move matches to another server, Mr Arrogant 2 kicking more afk people, chat client for those people who only want to chat).