forthcoming changes to the league

[Ricko]

I honestly don't know if Cobra will even attempt TWLB this season on the basis that stacking has become such an issue we can't pick up any basers - they all keep saying they'd join if we had basers, which obviously in turn means we can't recruit anyone because we currently only have a few guys who multi-league. and aren't 'dedicated' basers.
Their logic is clearly flawed because they've all stacked onto 2-3 teams and due to doing this, they don't actually have anyone to play, they just sit on a roster and moan basing is dead.

[Ravos]

For those who moan basing is dead,
Vikings can use 3 more good basers to be another competative team too.
Pm me in game

[Geio]

I honestly don't know if Cobra will even attempt TWLB this season on the basis that stacking has become such an issue we can't pick up any basers - they all keep saying they'd join if we had basers, which obviously in turn means we can't recruit anyone because we currently only have a few guys who multi-league. and aren't 'dedicated' basers.
Their logic is clearly flawed because they've all stacked onto 2-3 teams and due to doing this, they don't actually have anyone to play, they just sit on a roster and moan basing is dead.

Ricko just hit a grand slam. Yeah it is redic we on fierce have the same problem, we just want like one person to shark and or maybe a decent terrier and we get the same exact thing "if you had this baser or that baser is join" but instead I'm going to stack burn and dudgeon....so stupid.

[Turban]

exactly.

it is a sad day for the zone when we can only muster three competitive squads in basing because of the self-centric attitude several of our competitive players share.

unfortunately the only way to solve the recurring problem of basing squads being stacked is to force the players to play on a different team as they clearly do not want to challenge and prove themselves on a lesser team. to me, it seems as if most of these so-called great player simply do not have the mental strength to challenge themselves which leads into them sticking with the players they know are good, and when the player base gets smaller and smaller each year .. well, the competition naturally gets worse. it's not a great feeling to see once a prestigious league turn into a joke.

on another note, we are working on implementing the burst change to TWBD and TWLB as soon as possible for live testing, and in the event of it not being possible to add it on a timely manner, we will simply scrap the idea and use the original settings. additionally the time change from 15 minutes to 12 minutes is not that significant and in theory it should make the teams take matches more seriously from the get-go. this change allows us to host more basing games per week without the fear of schedules overlapping which has happened every single season.

[Ephemeral]

exactly.

it is a sad day for the zone when we can only muster three competitive squads in basing because of the self-centric attitude several of our competitive players share.

unfortunately the only way to solve the recurring problem of basing squads being stacked is to force the players to play on a different team as they clearly do not want to challenge and prove themselves on a lesser team. to me, it seems as if most of these so-called great player simply do not have the mental strength to challenge themselves which leads into them sticking with the players they know are good, and when the player base gets smaller and smaller each year .. well, the competition naturally gets worse. it's not a great feeling to see once a prestigious league turn into a joke.

Agreed, then grow some balls and put an end to TWLB. It has run its course, it is a shadow of its former self. Or move all TWL matches to weekday, evening hours (except for playoffs). This by itself should encourage more interest in TWD and TW should, in my opinion, be doing just that. Holding a once a year TWL 'tourney' (now limited to 12 minute games and 4 week duration) means that you can't really compare it to the other seasons. I can imagine the shit talk now; 'WE were champions before the shortened season' kind of thing. Or 'lets not give a little icon ring to the winners this season'.

Why would we disrupt TWD, Pub, and other events just to kiss the ass of a handful of 'vets'? What gives this the 'right' to snag the prime hours? Just to bring back a few 'vets' who will only play in prime time and won't support the rest of the zone? Or how about making TWL participation contingent upon the number of recent hours played in Pub (or some other contributions)? If any player says 'screw that, I will only play in prime time and with a stacked team than I say the zone is better off without them.

It is time to make some hard decisions, I completely agree with you that it sucks to see a 'premier' league turn into what it has.

And I'll also mention the burst change... While I see the benefit this may have a pretty big impact on Flag Room play. Sharks may now have to 'save' a rep for bursts. This will add a renewed interest in playing a special since sharks will now have to 'save' 2 reps. Spiders may see less reps for them. But I understand the 'luck' factor, it was one of the few things left that had the potential to give poor squads a chance at an upset. But this isn't about that, we have to do what the handful of 'vets' want because God forbid they might not play 4 weeks out of every year.
Eph

[ogron]

If we're all in fucking agreement TWLB with 3 squads is retarded, and it requires 8 starters + 3-5 subs, but LJ and LD are healthy, let's do something about it?

Just separate TWLB completely from the LD/LJ squads, and put together 6 competitive squads (+ let two traditional newbie squads round it out for experience and get stomped) with a hybrid draft or something.

Just doing a quick count (don't debate who's a starter/sub please, it's just a quick scan to make a point) there's about the equivalent of 80 starting value, giving 1 point to active LB starters, and .5 to subs/inactive/can't play/won't show much -- and that's a generous assessment.

You need a value of 10 or more to be a competitive LB squad. The only squads with that much basing value right now are Dudgeon and LEGO, with Burn and Potenza a few players behind, and Rapid, Vikings, and Juans with half-lines.



Having three top-tier basing starters like Ease/Zizu/Commodo wasting away on Juans is so fucking wasteful, it's insane in a rapidly dying league.

Separate TWLB and let those players stay on their TWLD/TWLJ squads.

Or just let basing die. LB looks like a joke at the moment. Having 5 value on Vikings/Rapid is stupid -- it's an uncompetitive line that's going to get stomped by the 3 stacked squads, and wasting valuable basing starters who could complete other lines to vs. top-tier squads.

There probably isn't even 80 total value, a ton of those undeclared players won't be active or play. A safe bet would be six squads splitting that talent.

Or limit TWLBers to six squads: Dudgeon, LEGO, Burn, Vikings, Potenza, Rapid, and anyone not on those squads can base on them. Then a week before cap the amount of LB starters you can have by the total amount of active players by 6. So if theres 78 basing value, cap each squads value at 13.

Or another idea. But do something.

[zidane]

Uhhh since when is burn taking basers LOL? we've got like 5 total basers and 3 of them don't play this game :S

[Jones]

Why would we disrupt TWD, Pub, and other events just to kiss the ass of a handful of 'vets'? What gives this the 'right' to snag the prime hours? Just to bring back a few 'vets' who will only play in prime time and won't support the rest of the zone? O

I respectfully disagree with this statement. TWL has been around for a very long time. Reading Epinephrines history (since I wasn't there) gives us a few hints as to why this zone became interesting. Namely, the TWDL, TWJL, TWBL thingies. Now, pub players as a whole may have never given a damn about these things but it sure as hell attracted many people to these leagues, many people standing on "top" these days who are still playing were actively trying to get better in pub and striving to join squads on a more competitive level. In fact, just a few seasons ago (maybe even 2) there were 250 people in the TWLD arena, making problems for people playing who lagged out! They couldn't even enter because there were so many.

But perhaps this is just for the few elites, I disagree with that, it's for the entire zone. Everything has changed in the outside world. Games are entirely different. Without doubt, TWL is one of the few things that are actually contributing to the entire zone, not disrupting it. The narcissistic behaviour in humans have never been as rewarding as it has been in TWL settings within this game atleast. Everyone wants to be number 1. TWL is the way to make it happen.
Here's a couple of reasons why TWL is good for the zone:

1. Player retention
2. Squad rivalry
3. Most people in TW recorded on sunday to sunday is during TWL
4. Newbies/mediocre/good players have something to strive for

edit. im drunk so i forgot half of what i was about to say but it would have been awesome. sorry!

[Zeebu]

its pretty easy to understand

we dont have as many active people as we once did

to run an efficient basing squad i would say probably takes somewhere around 10-15 basers that know what they are doing and that are mildly active. it takes more people to play base. it also takes some more specialty ships that few people know how to work.

[Ephemeral]

Jones,
While I understand your argument(s) I have to say I do not agree with it. It looks ok on paper, but I do not feel that the points you raise are applicable.

1. Player retention - TWLB has evolved into 3 competitive teams; it has been this way for several seasons. These teams most contain the same vet players each season. Many do not play other things in TW, they do not spend additional time in the zone. So I am failing to see how this helps with player retention. Is getting a handful of vets t log on for 12 minutes over 4 weeks really going to help the zones player retention in a significant way?

2. Squad rivalry – There is only rivalry between the 3 competitive teams. This got old and tired about 4 season ago. We have already seen the same team, the same players, battle against each other. Note how few people there have been in spec during regular season TWLB matches the last few years. Truthfully newer players should watch these games, they represent how basing really should be played. But they don’t, attendance is down for these games.

3. Most people in TW recorded on sunday to sunday is during TWL – True enough but this only establishes that is a good time for the zone. I only see a casual relationship between these times and TWLB. TWL grabs this time because it is the best time for the zone and players. But same is true for any event or other league. If we wanted to hold a TW Hockey tourney we would naturally want to hold it on Sundays. Could we then make the argument that the Hockey tourney was good for the zone just because we got players to show up on Sundays?

4. Newbies/mediocre/good players have something to strive for - Only true if you can demonstrate that TWL actually contributes to the zone’s player base. I have a fair amount of experience playing on ‘lesser’ TWL squads and I can tell you that it is not fun to be owned by the powerhouse teams week after week. In fact, I can name a number of players who completely quit TW after struggling through losing TWL seasons.

Turb has substantially cut back on TWL this season (game time and season duration). He didn’t do this because he simply wanted to; he did it because there are very real problems due to the shrinking of the TW population. TWL is supposed to be the premier league of TW, but this is getting more and more difficult to justify as the zone population declines (big fish in a little pond). At some point we should stick a fork in it and apply the scarce resources to TWD, which is much more likely to support the points you make (player retention, squad rivalry, and to give the newbies/mediocre/good players have something to strive for). Perhaps this isn’t the year to end TWL, but it certainly should be discussed openly and anticipated. Yes, some vets will whine and get butt hurt. Some might even threaten to leave the zone. Who cares? Are we so desperate that we have to try to meet the individual requirements of every single player? Hell, it’s about impossible to stir up a single competitive TWBD game in TW nowadays.

TW is like a retail store carrying an expensive line of products. They have some customers who purchase these expensive items but they do not ever buy anything else in the store. This works out as long as there are enough other customers flowing through the store. But what happens when the store begins to struggle due to fewer customers and less traffic? The store has to begin to cut corners. And the first thing to go is the expensive line of products; even if it means losing the handful of customers who only came in once a year to purchase it. Of course it is a loss and no one wants to walk away from what was once a great feature. But the time as probably come, at least for TWLB.
Eph

[Ricko]

I love you eph, but your continuous posts to kill TWL are growing tiresome. I don't think any active competitive player would agree with your view on this, but obviously everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If TWL was removed you'd see the zone's population probably decrease by over half. With SS being such a long standing game and with many players having been around for over 10 years, it is the competitive competitions that keep them playing - it's hard to say after 10 years people want to sit and play pub for a few hours a day to no end, they want to be playing the more challenging and exciting aspects of the game - TWL.

The issue is both that we have a declining population, and that our 'elite' player base only want to play with the very best which has lead to stacking....we need to try to find a way to make people come out of their comfort zone slightly, but not too much that TWL is ruined and people just quit.

[Ephemeral]

Ricko,
I am all in favor of a method that would make TWLB competitive (and note that I only was talking about TWLB); but I haven’t seen anything that would really work. What is the method you recommend? Claus has posted a few ideas that work towards it, but in my opinion they would not eliminate stacked teams. If the ‘vet’ players would be willing to not form stacked teams, and try to teach, mentor, and encourage newer players instead of owning and trash talking them, then there might be a chance of squeezing out some life in the zone (even after we blew the Steam opportunity). The only way I can think of is to make completely random teams. Can you imagine the bitching if that were to be implemented?

BTW, want to hear about some of these ’great vets’? You mean the same ones who have said the following to me over the last month? “Have you not died yet?” and “When is the cancer going to finally kill you.” And “you suck so bad, why are you still here?” These all came from players who would be recognized as longtime ‘vets’ and play TWLB. This should give you an idea of the mentality of some of the player we expect to suddenly be willing to form non-stacked teams.

Sorry, but I am hard pressed to support players like this when we are discussing reasons to consume TW resources which might be better applied to the longevity of the zone. But so be it, you guys have at it. Play the 3 competitive team, 4 week TWLB, and enjoy playing with the ‘vets’ who wish IRL death on dying fellow players, and ultimately you can determine if it is exciting and/or good for the zone. My opinion remains the same.
Eph

[Turban]

the future of this zone, at least from the leagues standpoint, depends on our players willingness to bring new players to the scene. ideally we would have several players and squads actively tutoring new players to show them the ropes and introducing them to the league scene. sadly most of the players who used to do such things, on a regular basis, have moved on from the game, and the loss of these players has lead into a steady decline of players in both TWD and TWD which is slowly, but surely, killing the league scene.

now moving on to the basing issue that we face. we do not see a point in actually running a TWLB season with how things stand right now, and will hold an emergency meeting of sorts to figure out the details on how to tackle this problem. the fact that we only have, at most, three competitive squads in the league means it can no longer be called a premier league. the competition simply isn't there to support such a claim.

@ eph: those players only represent a very, very small minority of the league players, and admittedly we would be better off without some of them as they bring nothing positive to the game.

[Crescent Seal]

what is the roster cap going to be for 1 league/2 league/3 league squads?

wat time allow DSing in twd?

separating twlb from twld/twlj seems like the best option atm. could either do a draft for twlb or allow players to DS during twl to fill up basing squads.

[Crescent Seal]

Ricko just hit a grand slam. Yeah it is redic we on fierce have the same problem, we just want like one person to shark and or maybe a decent terrier and we get the same exact thing "if you had this baser or that baser is join" but instead I'm going to stack burn and dudgeon....so stupid.

one thing fierce seems to not realize is that they have 9 capable warbirds in apok, deez, skep, LS, welt, u, vash, casket, tripin. i'm sure lasenza will rejoin you guys soon as well since he needs vent and apok/deez to win. why the fuk do you guys need so many? you are all highly active and twl caliber. if you guys split apart, the faggots on burn will also spread to other squads. its honestly that simple.