Announcement

**Awesome** · 08-01-2003, 12:57 AM

Congratulations No Surrender

**pv=nrt** · 08-01-2003, 01:56 AM

A-S WINS WIN WINS WINS WINS WINS WINS WINS WINS WINS.

OOOO HELLL YEA!!! WE WONA TWJL GAME. AND ALL THAT JAV PRACTICE FOR NOTHING.

**Da1andonly** · 08-01-2003, 03:33 AM

Heh, another 3 idiots that aren't satisfied with their own squad.

gg a-s!

**Sirius** · 08-01-2003, 03:33 AM

Well, looks like Epinephrine saved me the trouble of making a new thread.

Please note that we do not tolerate double squadders in this league and I hope this proves our dedication to the end.

Right.

As much fun as it may be to dance around howling that double squadders have been caught and getting giddy over the chance to remorselessly make an example of the evil double squadding squads, I think it's time to jump to the logic and facts, and shut the parade down.

When Epinephrine informed me that Independence was double squadding, I was also told that I could write an appeal concerning the issue to give sufficient reason towards why a pardon may be considered in this case. This implied that there was actually some information or logic that existed which could have indeed turned this event into a pardon. Regardless of what I was told though, I have a feeling my appeal was more of a trinket to fuel the bonfire with, than anything else.

Therefore, I'm going to post the appeal I sent to the Trench Wars League Operators, so that the crowd can decide for itself, granted what the appeal states, whether the decision made was sound in any way, or whether there was any reason to ask for an appeal at all, since I can quickly tell that the league op(s) are hasty to disregard any logic and the irrelevance that this particular issue has to the reason the no double squadding rule was made in the first place.

' This appeal is written in regards to the recent discovery of a double squadder on Solstice, and his unfortunate participation, as a last resort, in the league match vs No Surrender held on Sunday.

Two of Solstice's starters did not show up, therefore Solstice was to use Russian Assassin and FsTemplar as their replacements in the match. Unfortunately Russian Assassin went afk 2 minutes before the match began, and was afk when it began, and had to be subbed by the only person online, Independence. Independence lacks the caliber to be anything more than a twdd warbird, and was never meant to play in leagues - this was simply an emergency situation where there were no other options.

The weight which this appeal bears concerning legitimacy lies behind the different factors which bring the rule in question into being, and the factors which existed during the match.

The primary reason why double squadding is not allowed, is because it would cause for unfair advantages/tests of squad's strengths. The primary principle behind the league season is to determine which squad is the strongest, and can therefore win, without any fluctuation of strength between the squads. In other words, the squads should more or less remain static and exquisite to themselves. What makes certain squads more potent than others are the players they harbor. And the fact that those players are on their squad, and not on some other squad. That gives squads the edge they have. By allowing squads to have the same players under different names would be to homogenize them, and the whole concept of league play would be lost.

Having explained this, we take Solstice's situation into consideration. Solstice's situation is not parallel to the type of scenario explained above. Twd squads have no impact nor connection to the league competition in any way, shape, or form, therefore they cannot alter any outcomes of league squads or matches by any means. Being Independence was not found double squadding on another league squad, this scenario did not breach or tamper with the properties mentioned in the paragraph above, which would cause for the rule against double squadding to exist.

Once more it should be reiterated the double squadding normally has the intent of giving the accused squad(s) an advantage, that is what a punishment would be given for.

Even if we were to propose he was found on a league squad, consider this - was Independence a contributing factor to the game, in Solstice's favor, the squad being accused? Did he indeed give Solstice an advantage? If to weigh it out, it would appear Independence contributed more to No Surrender than he did to Solstice! After taking a look at his stats, it becomes clear that Independence only killed 3 people, and, so to speak, let himself be killed 10 times, giving the opponents 7 kills over his 3. Had one of the starters who didn't show up played instead of him, that starter by far would not have gotten 10 deaths easily, nor with only 3 kills of their own, considering one of the starters missing is Solstice's best wb. In fact, had all the starters been there, the match would have been closer to 50-22.

Next, we evaluate the 3 deaths with which Independence contributed to Solstice. If this was a neck to neck game, then perhaps they would be of value. But, considering one of the Solstice players, Killermech had a record of 15-1, the game by far was not even close. Had Independence never been subbed in, Solstice would have won just as well, except the 3 remaining Solstice players would have to have gotten 3 more kills each, without dying 10 times in the process. Clearly the game would have been better off for Solstice score-wise if Independence was never in the match all in all.

Therefore what would the forfeit punishment serve to punish? Our disadvantage of putting Independence in? Since clearly Independence's play only served towards Solstice's disadvantage.

As a simple user, I have no power to check for double squadders on the squad. This scenario was not intentional, nor tampered with the leagues in any form (the double squadding aspect itself, since the double squadder was on only one league squad), therefore was a simple mistake that I had no power to foresee. Granted it's neutral, unintentional, non abusive/offensive nature, it's negative impact on the accused squad, no positive advantage or value towards the accused squad, and it's deviation from any activities which truly set the non-doublesquadding rule in place, it seems only fair that this case be granted a pardon on behalf of the league administrators.

~Andy (Sirius.)'

So, judging by every explanation, justification, and shut-out of attacks or accusations towards Solstice, can anyone point out a logical reason why this appeal would fail to accomplish it's task? (Granted the fact that since I was told I could make an appeal, the appeal is supposed to have a chance to pardon the case..I'd like to see where this appeal fails to do so.)

I've been watching these forums silently, watching people bash you left and right; I'm not going to pass judgments on people concerning events which I have not witnessed myself, but I'm not going to tolerate your trash when you come onto my territory with your authority figure fiascos.

Next time I suggest you either play the total ignorant and say nothing will be able to pardon this case, or take what you get out of an appeal and apply it. Asking for an appeal when you have your mind made up concerning the condemnation of a squad just further underlines everyone's claims concerning what a sloppy, sloppy excuse for a league op is roaming around the zone playing supa cop.

Taking into consideration your incompetence with managing a position of such caliber as that which you've been assigned to, I'll give you a little hint: this is an environment with real people and real situations, regardless of the absence of physical interaction. Take a hint and learn to live up to your inherent directive of fair, non bias authority, or pack your bags and gtfo. I'm sure your mom could use some help around the house.

**PhaithDzyne** · 08-01-2003, 03:56 AM

I quit. But yea I'm sry people from faded were double squadding and I guess they dind't think. <3 me atleast

**Randedl** · 08-01-2003, 04:03 AM

sirius, that would all make sense if the rules were not completely black and white, did he or did he not double squad (being on more than one twl and/or twd squad at the same time).

seems like a strong yes to me.

and if he was the last choice to put in, you woulda been down 4vs5, and that is a huge difference, so don't say he did nothing in your defence (which isn't even a defence).

big words and circular arguments don't make you right. rules against double squading don't exist for the reason you said they does, it exists because double squading is illegal in trench wars.

personally i screen all my recruits before they enter melee, and i hope they are being honest, but then again, i know the people i recruit pretty well. . . maybe you should rethink your recruitment methods.

**Sirius** · 08-01-2003, 04:36 AM

Here comes Epinephrine's lapdog Randled with his fresh batch of incoherent arguments. You seemed like a nice guy to me, and it seems unfortunate, but Escalate was correct about your babble, it does seem quite empty and you do appear to strike retorts for the boring hell of it. In fact, I think I got a link for you right here:

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame15.html

Now that that's been cleared up, let's take a look at your poorly thought out retort, well, whatever there is of it...not much, but I guess that's what he have to work with.

sirius, that would all make sense if the rules were not completely black and white, did he or did he not double squad (being on more than one twl and/or twd squad at the same time).

True, and thanks for further discrediting Epinephrine for me by implying that him telling me I could appeal the case if the desicion was already thought up was ridiculous; glad you got that figured out.

and that is a huge difference, so don't say he did nothing in your defence (which isn't even a defence).

Defense. Yeah, it is a huge difference isn't it? He lost 10 times for 3 kills, while if he wasn't put in he would have lost 0 times and gotten 0 kills, 3 of which could have easily been obtained by the other 3 people playing.

big words

Big words? Were you born on a farm or is English a form of foreign language to you? My diction is quite average, but thanks for your flattering comments.

rules against double squading don't exist for the reason you said they does, it exists because double squading is illegal in trench wars.

Hands shaking with rage? Aside from your slop job concerning typing your post up, you fail to make any credible claims at all. The rule exists because double squadding is illegal? Really? Oh...I thought it existed because it was legal...damn, what was I thinking.

Of course the rule is there because it's illegal, and something is legal/illegal for a reason, which I gave. You basically contradicted yourself by implying there is no reason for the rule except the fact that it's illegal, which would require a reason.

maybe you should rethink your recruitment methods.

And maybe you should rethink what you slop together before you hit the 'submit reply' button. This garbled nonsense of yours isn't going to fly as an argument.

Yep...god forbid another one of those lackeys come onto Solstice who forgot to remove themselves from the rosters of some other non-relevant twd squads he was in but had otherwise already left.

Keep them coming Randedl, I have enough to not only pacify your insatiable thirst for an argument, but every other flamer who turns their head in this direction.

**Cpt.Guano!** · 08-01-2003, 05:12 AM

Well it seems as though the main part of your argument lies in the fact that epi told you to send in a formal appeal because you use that fact to argue that the rule is black and white. The reason that epi told you to do that was because all special requests must be formally made so that both league ops (yes im a league op :P) can discuss them and decide on a course of action.

Regarding the arguments that you provided in your appeal...

It still does not change the fact that the rule states that:

b) Forfeit of all squad matches played in the week the offense was discovered of which the player participated in.

The double squadding rules are there for the simple fact that one person has one chance to make a difference in a squad and should not play for another one... it has nothing to do with improving performance or giving one squad an edge over another. Your squad member should have thought about the consequences of his actions before 1) joining another squad and 2) playing in a league game. The rules have been posted for at least 6 months so he has had plenty of time to read them.

Regarding the statement that the twd roster does not affect twl in any way: The twl roster is set by the twd roster so in that respect the two leagues are intertwined. Secondly double squadding is double squadding...

Honestly sirius, i am sorry that we had to take your win away from you but we have been enforcing the doublesquadding rules all twl season regardless of the circumstances so i dont think it would be fair to grant your squad special immunity.

**Sirius** · 08-01-2003, 05:26 AM

Well it seems as though the main part of your argument lies in the fact that epi told you to send in a formal appeal because you use that fact to argue that the rule is black and white.

Nah, I was told I could attempt to appeal it, and I was informed that there was a chance for it to be pardoned. Sorry. And until I am shown otherwise, every speck of information and logic provided in my appeal stands above any logic by which the rule against double squadding runs.

The double squadding rules are there for the simple fact that one person has one chance to make a difference in a squad and should not play for another one. Your squad member should have thought about the consequences of his actions before 1) joining another squad and 2) playing in a league game.

I had no idea he was double squadding, neither did anyone else. Even if going by your logic behind the double squadding rule, in our case he wasn't even on those squads anymore, he just forgot to get off the rosters he told me. Meaning he was only making a difference for one squad - Solstice.

Why enforce rules by black and white instead of evaluating each one for what it is? Sure state the fact that double squadding is not allowed for such and such reasons, as a given for people to understand, but then when situations come along where people DO end up getting caught double squadding or what-not, it can be resolved whether those situations even fall into the same category of abuse as what the rule is meant to prevent. Otherwise it's just not fair for squads who have to suffer because a rule is enforced ignorantly just by black and white, regardless of how special it's circumstance may be.

I don't know what your intentions are Guano, nor do I have any negative views of you at the moment, but I think you overestimate Epinephrine's intentions just a bit. For him this is just a happy day to make sport of Solstice and whoever else to show that abuse blah blah is not tolerated, even though Solstice's case does not even fall parallel to the abuse that is supposed to be prevented.

It's like making a rule that anyone who tries to sneak into a movie theatre will be fined for trying to get into the movies without paying. Then some mentally deficient person who can't read and has immensely poor comprehension skill walks through simply because of an impulse, with no desire to watch movies or abuse anything, and just goes through to an area after the entrance..doesn't watch a movie or anything, and then just strolls back, and they would get the same punishment as a true abuser. That's just a ridiculous concept.

**Cpt.Guano!** · 08-01-2003, 05:46 AM

please dont think that epi is out to get you guys

ill tell you what happened sirus :S

i got online and epi told me to check the twl emails cause there was an appeal from you guys.

i read it and we discussed both sides of the story and came to the conclusion that it would not be appropriate to bend the rules for you guys. Imagine how no surrender would have felt if we told them that we "ignored" a rule. We came to the conclusion that the circumstances behind the incident was not nearly as important as the fact that: 1) your squad member should have showed more loyalty to your squad and 2) the rules have been made public for a while now so he should have known the consequences of his actions. Please dont place all of the blame on epi because this decision was a joint one from both of us :S

**sTuPiD-gErBiL** · 08-01-2003, 06:03 AM

unfortunately Sirius, the rules are definitely not in your favor. it's pretty clear what the rule defines double-squadding as and it's pretty clear what the rule's consequences are.

however, in your defense, you have every right to be upset and question the rule because throughout the season, some rules have been enforced as black and white and others have been bent by op discretion. from examples set so far, none of us have any clue which rules will be enforced and which will be turned a blind eye towards.

as far as appealing goes, you're wasting your time. even if you had a snowball's chance in hell at making a viable argument in your favor and managed to point out some flaw in the system, it will be promptly ignored. and as much as i hate to agree with randedl, he's correct when he says you'll just have to take extra care in making sure the people you recruit are legit.

**sTuPiD-gErBiL** · 08-01-2003, 06:07 AM

well, at least guano seems sincere in trying to evaluate situations as deeply as possible. kudos to him.

**Rule** · 08-01-2003, 06:08 AM

The basic rules:

III. Multiple Squad Membership and Cheating

Multiple squad membership, or double-squadding, is defined as one player being registered with two different participating squads of Trench Wars Leagues or in a Trench Wars Leagues and a Trench Wars Division squad *even if the squads play in different league divisions*.

Instances of double squadding will not be tolerated.

3.01 Double-Squadding for Players: Any player found to be joined to either two Trench Wars Leagues squads or a Trench Wars Leagues and a Trench Wars Divisions squad, will be subject to suspension from Trench Wars Leagues for the remainder of the season. *If they played in any games the week of discovery, those games will be forfeited by the squad that had the double squadder.*

_______

Whether indepedence went 3-10 or 20-10 it would not matter. Rules were made prior to the season over this, and this applies to every twl squad, every player, no matter what there skill level is or how they affect the match. If you have any case it could be that it was not "intentional" if that is the truth as you said. All the same it was his and your (as a captain) responsibility to ensure he was on one roster. Mistakes are made by all, and it is right that you should be allowed to have an appeal (grey area). Things dont always go your way though, flaming people isnt going to get you anywhere either.

"For him this is just a happy day to make sport of Solstice and whoever else to show that abuse blah blah is not tolerated, even though Solstice's case does not even fall parallel to the abuse that is supposed to be prevented."

Narrow to assume the worst in people when you really dont know. You may not believe me but in my opinion Epi takes his job seriously and trys to be just, he is not one to make sport of what happens. I think he would of looked at your appeal, consulted with others and come to the conclusion that the rules applied to this issue, and not done it in the way you have mentioned.

Regards

Rule

**PhaithDzyne** · 08-01-2003, 06:24 AM

Give it up. I sure hope tiny don't bitch like u.

Announcement

Double squadders caught -READ-

Double squadders caught -READ-

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