Thunder vs Terrorist TWDTB Semi-Finals Round 2 Appeal

[Jessup]

Why is it only allowed in basing? Losing players in any division due to lagouts sucks. Fix it now across the board in all divisions in TWL and TWDT please. I never argued that having this changed and implemented was a bad thing. I argued that saying because twl base has resubs meant that the same standard could be applied to TWDTB this season. They are different leagues with different purposes and the vast majority (if any) of twdtb seasons never allowed this resubbing. The original twdt bot did not have this feature unlike twlbot did from the start. The two leagues have been totally different in these regards up to this point. Also the timing was terrible and unfair to terrorist. I felt this should have been fixed after the season ended. Allow resubs for ALL divisions! Add it on in DD and JD please. Games are just as ruined and hurt losing a star player in warbird or jav to a lagout. Teams are smaller in non base divisions too so losing one imo hurts game dynamics even more. Just allow it for every division. It would be much better.

[Undercut]

Doesn't this just set the precedent that if any starting player in TWL or TWDT lags out due to things out of their control (weather, IP issues etc), that the result can be appealed?

The amount of TWL matches decided by players being unable to play due to issues such as this, returning and not being able to get back in/their team subbed them must be quite significant (Ease in a TWLD final, I had it in a semi final a few seasons back just to name two).**

Imagine what the history of TWL would look like if every connectivity issue resulted in replays...


**I understand the counter argument to this is the bot bug, but meh. Feels wrong.

Subbing back in is only allowed in basing, and without the bot bug JAMAL gets put back in and there isn't anything to appeal. Lagouts happen in the game and you have to deal with it, this was just a shitty situation where the player came back and should've been allowed back in but wasn't.

[Ricko]

Doesn't this just set the precedent that if any starting player in TWL or TWDT lags out due to things out of their control (weather, IP issues etc), that the result can be appealed?

The amount of TWL matches decided by players being unable to play due to issues such as this, returning and not being able to get back in/their team subbed them must be quite significant (Ease in a TWLD final, I had it in a semi final a few seasons back just to name two).**

Imagine what the history of TWL would look like if every connectivity issue resulted in replays...


**I understand the counter argument to this is the bot bug, but meh. Feels wrong.

[RoDNeY]

sum1 allow me tl;dr version

thunder vs terrorist

Jamal on thunder, Jamal lagout
Thunder subs jamal
Jamal comes back
Thunder cannot sub jamal back in because of bot limitations
Thunder lose
Thunder appeals game saying they lost without jamal and call it a "bug"
Others on forum call it a mechanic that has been in the game for years

Appeal gets approved
Rematch of one round with Terrorist getting a 3:33 head start

Many disgruntled players claiming appeal should have been denied
Terrorist upset
Thunder happy

[Crescent Seal]

sum1 allow me tl;dr version

[ogron]

If Terrorist has trouble showing at 4:15pm, the game should be started at 5:00pm.

Def not fair to them to start it early if they can't show.

Start it at 5pm.

[Zizzo]

Yeah.. 4:15pm is no go for me as my flight lands at 3:45pm.

[RoDNeY]

Yo look at this nerd LOL
Instead of responding on forums guy leaves me an in game message.

[Feb 26 19:46] Ogron: You don't speak for Legio you low-star bum. Myth said himself Terror was eziest out. Only out of control ego is you, thinking you're god's gift to TWDT-B cuz u won as a low-star.

this guy has nothing better going on with his life that he lives and breathes for this game

Yo ogron i really liked your video analysis about how we smashed you guys. Was an entertaining video to watch you point out all of the ways that you failed and i highly enjoyed the pain in your voice as you recapped each play. Takes this draft league so serious he records and edits clips to study how people play LMAO im fuckin ded

no wonder nobody can stand this nerd, dont @ me

[Dreamwin]

Hey myth, just a quick reply for you. I didnt mean to attack you personally in any way. I dont know if you feel that way but I could read between the lines that you might have felt that way. I do not hold any hatred against you due to this incident. You are just doing your job and its not an easy one. I appreciate all the effort u have put into this league and respect you as a player and person. Even though, I think the decision is very wrong.

Its true that I dont have much time, took me 2minutes to find those old threads as i remember them happening.

This is my last reply to this topic.

[Falconeer]

Sounds like ease and ogron knew or could have known.

Sounds like qan by his own words said "It could be by design or a bug" so it being a "bug" is ambiguous at best.

Sounds like there is still a discrepancy with the history/timeline, so much so that people started asking old developers/staff like humid.

Sounds like no one took the time to find out JAMALS location by IP and verify if there was at least light rain that night/afternoon at that time.

P.S sound refers to my voice in my head when reading all this B.S

this was a 50/50 call if i was having favoritism toward thunder, and do you know how you call a 50/50? you don't. Appeal denied. You need 80-95% confidence to call appeals.

[Majorcrisis2]

This is from humid who was running TWL and some TWDT seasons:

[8:32 PM]
ritoky:
hmmm
i think it was broken/able to be done
but i believe we had sub limits back when i ran it
so if someone wanted to waste their 2 subs bringing some1 out then back in
i don't remember caring

There were 2 or 3 subs max yea. Just like there was in twd and twl. Wb and jav had 1. Dunno if you could sub back. Just like ogron stated before, this situation dont really happen that often, because mainly u sub because of lag or sucking. Back in the days every roster had multiple backups, so you wouldnt sub someone back in.

[Mythril]

DW, from one busy guy to another, I appreciate you writing that out. Many people mistake the game for real life jobs or sports careers. The reality is, this is a video game that we're all playing in our free time. I'm a volunteer here, and would much prefer to only be a player as I've been for most of my time in the game. From my perspective, I'm trying to be as objective as possible. As I said earlier, I was well aware of the optics from someone in my position in this appeal.

I didn't attempt to screw you over in the name of Thunder favoritism. When the evidence pointed a different direction, I didn't have a problem ruling this in your favor. Any disagreement, I can tell you, is one of good faith on my end. I can't take your current bad streak into account when I'm looking at a single situation. I don't blame you for being extra annoyed at the result, but that just couldn't be a factor in my reasoning.

Sunday night, I had assignments due by midnight. Monday, I had work. Tuesday, I had work and class. This game will never be prioritized at the top of my list, and is the reason I've stepped down and let others lead the next leagues. What is true is I didn't spend 48 hours digging through the forums for past appeals and every precedent ever recorded. I did what I felt was satisfactory. I told the community where I stood initially, asked the community for arguments that maybe I didn't think of, and I asked the most credible dev person of the last decade, qan, to provide me more information on the facts with the bot issue.

As soon as qan saw the appeal, this is what he told me:

The bug itself is a bit of a head-scratcher. Can you confirm that this happens every time someone is subbed out and you try to sub them in again? There was a special rule made for this called "subcansub" for basing only, specifically to make this possible. It's confusing that this is the first time I'm hearing about it if it's a bug that's been around for years

There were 8 pages of this thread with people claiming they were aficionados of double subbing rules in every single bot in the history of trench wars. Here's what's almost certain: nobody actually knew. Qan has detailed the reason for the mass confusion. Turban (Previous TWL Op), myself (TWDT Op), qan (Head of Dev), and Ease (TWL Captain for the last 15 years,) were all confused at what happened. To the people claiming they absolutely knew, Terrorist may be in a better position if you had stepped up to run the league. Unfortunately, I was the only one, and I was the one who had to decide. The Humid quote that was referenced reads as if it was a TWL scorebox error in the integration, not the capability of the double sub itself.

Here is the breakdown of my decision:

As stated, my initial reaction was leaning towards a complete appeal or the eventual outcome, option 3. If the bot glitch was verified (it was), completely denying the appeal didn't make sense to me. The same logic would have applied to any team, let alone the biggest threat to my team in the TWDT-B finals.

Terrorist can argue they now have to win 3 rounds. Without the appeal, Thunder can argue Terrorist only had to win one round. The rematch is necessary here, and is the most fair option. However, with lag/round 3 being weighted into my decision, I decided to grant the appeal with a 3:33 advantage for Terrorist for their performance in the-then-critical round 3.

A tornado in JAMAL's city is a natural variable of the game that will not be duplicated this Sunday, but would have had an affect on the games if all were played during the scheduled time without the glitch. I also feel it's a mistake to minimize the stakes and intensity of the round three that the entire zone was witness to by renaming it round two. As someone who just participated in a round three last Sunday, it's tough to convince me otherwise.

Thunder deserves another round because of the bot glitch in their round 2, and Terrorist deserves to have a 3:33 head start in that round to account for the round three that was played when both teams thought the finals appearance was going to be decided in those 30 minutes. The intensity was obvious that game. Anyone who's played a round three in the playoffs should be able to vouch for this.

To Dreamwin and members of Terrorist:

Dreamwin, I haven't spoken to league ops, or my team, but do not want you playing the extra round without your top lineup. If you guys need 5:00, we'll make that happen. I do not think I'm giving Thunder a free ride to the finals. I'm asking them to go through Terrorist, when you guys have a deserved head start going into the match. I don't believe this is a "free roll to the finals", and neither should your team.

I've done my job to uphold the competitive integrity of this league. It's up to you guys to hold up your end of the bargain. Shit happens. The decision is final.

[Turban]

This is from humid who was running TWL and some TWDT seasons:

[8:32 PM]
ritoky:
hmmm
i think it was broken/able to be done
but i believe we had sub limits back when i ran it
so if someone wanted to waste their 2 subs bringing some1 out then back in
i don't remember caring

[Jessup]

TWDT bots were used in alignment with the old twdt site which was connected similarly as twd is to twl bots. How many seasons was the old site in place? I know it was many years. I also know that more years by far were played using bots that never allowed these type subs in twdt because it was a inclusive league vs twl that was an exclusive league. You can not deny the truth that TWDT was not allowing these type subs for the vast majority of it. I'm not convinced it ever allowed these type subs personally. All evidence is sketchy "not revealed to public" stuff and not transparent. Again to fix this issue for a new season is fine but to do it at this juncture in such an important game over one player having connection issues in a supposedly inclusive designed league is outrageous. I see no logic making a decision to replay and allow an appeal which goes against the majority of seasons that have been played in twdt which did not allow this type sub.

[Voth]

this is pretty funny.

if this was always an allowed and normal aspect of the game (which anyone who has played basing matches before the last 7 years [giving qan's research complete faith] would know it was not), we would have seen some signs of it being used for the betterment of the team and as a strategical play. we haven't. i have never seen a baser subbed out and back in within the same round, ever...that incldues TWL, TWDT, TWBD, BASE, BASINGCUP, BASINGANYTHING. i would be very interested to see a log, a box score, a video, or any other evidence, that this supposed "capability" has ever actually been used. i'm not saying it hasn't, but it certainly has never been the norm.

for example, some spiders are much better in the flagroom than they are in the cram. some spiders are amazing at defending under, while others make it their only motive to destroy terriers (choo choo). if this was a large scale idea that was implemented and actually realized with a caps interaction with the bot, does no one think we would have seen a team use this subbing power to play their absolute best players in the absolute best scenarios if it was as simple as swapping a person in and out at will?