Thunder vs Terrorist TWDTB Semi-Finals Round 2 Appeal

[Falconeer]

There won't be a replay if you use common sense to go over the facts. This is my understanding of the facts. I could be wrong but it's because it's confusing to me, if so qan can correct me and only qan =)

1. There is a bug here that existed since 2011.
b) this leads everyone to think it's normal and apart of league.

2. The bug was corrected in 2017 but only for some bots, and excluded for others.

3. The bug never affected anyone else during this league.
b) if it did no one complained because it was perceived as 'normal'
c) no one else desires a rematch currently.

4. there is a question of time here... being apart of the bot for a whole league, for many years in fact, it affects the definition of a bug. its meant to be one way but it in fact was another way. reminds me of subspace in general, we were meant to have better security and other options, took until continuum to fix some problems... and now it's going to take entirely new clients to fix the rest.

5. "We also won the first round with JAMAL in. You just gonna pretend that one didn't happen? Also you know with the game having to be replayed after an appeal you technically didn't really win it, so you would have only actually won one game, just like we did."

If this is true, then there is already a precedent set for you guys losing with your star line-up in. If you actually won the first round then you could have argued the line ups screwed up your game.

6. Also Anonym is good enough to be a spider, and you had options of greater than 6* players in spec to choose from.

I would be surprised if there was a rematch given all of these points.

[Turban]

Q.E.D.

This is not a bug or bot error... This is part of the infrastructure of the game that has always existed. Absolutely no grounds for this appeal in the rules. It would be akin to appealing because you forgot terriers had bursts, or that F11 made you spec, or that there were lag limits, or that you could add two sharks. There can be no expectation of the rules to litigate the game to this kind of detail and banality. Probably the most ridiculous appeal I've ever heard - and no surprises that The Hideous Incel (Ogron) was behind it.

Thought about only observing how this thread develops over the days, but these kind of comments are rather irritating as you clearly are trying to derail the topic from its tracks.

What happened was an unintended bot error which was never corrected as no one reported it to league operators or developers. A handful of players, namely certain captains, were aware of this error however you can and should not assume that the existence of this error was known by all players. This was already proven by qan and other players.

Matter of the fact is that our basing leagues have allowed players to be substituted back into the game, at least in more competitive leagues, and that should also have been the case in TWDT as there is no logical reason to prevent a player from reentering the game.

I am not going to side with either of the teams, especially when considering how loose the TWDT rules are and given the casual nature of the league.

[Ricko]

nothing casual about 7 pages to this appeal thread!

[Falconeer]

Thought about only observing how this thread develops over the days, but these kind of comments are rather irritating as you clearly are trying to derail the topic from its tracks.

What happened was an unintended bot error which was never corrected as no one reported it to league operators or developers. A handful of players, namely certain captains, were aware of this error however you can and should not assume that the existence of this error was known by all players. This was already proven by qan and other players.

Matter of the fact is that our basing leagues have allowed players to be substituted back into the game, at least in more competitive leagues, and that should also have been the case in TWDT as there is no logical reason to prevent a player from reentering the game.

I am not going to side with either of the teams, especially when considering how loose the TWDT rules are and given the casual nature of the league.

This in itself is already problematic. "Some players, namely certain captains were aware of this error".... so a captain can have their all star line-up in, and lose the first round. And since they are aware of this bug they can now tell their player to sub out, pretend it was lag or due to a storm, and create a controversy on the forums if they don't win. It's a win-win situation, if the forum controversy pans out then they get a rematch, and if it doesn't they have an excuse for losing to cover their egos.

If it was me I would be ALIASing JAMAL, tracerting his IP, and verifying if there was a storm in his location at that time of day, for starters.

[Voth]

i don't really know where people get off claiming that this is a HUGE bot bug that no one knew about. sure, if qan says that the ability to re-sub players who were already subbed in was added to TWLBots, i'm sure it was added. however, i'm actually very interested to know if that feature was ever used in the past. ogron himself admits that when players are subbed, it's either due to sucking badly or lagging badly - neither of which scenario usually dictates that they are re-added later in the same match that they were subbed out of.

on the other hand, the bots that we use daily - ?go base/?go twbd, and more recently the league that has taken over as the primarily competitive league - ?go twdtb - DO NOT ALLOW THIS. anyone who has captained in one of these arenas for any significant period of time (i'll give you a hint: ease has) should know that the bot does not allow substitiuted players to be re-substituted in the same round.

whether or not this functionality is added to the game or not in the future - it is not a reasonable expectation that the functionality would have been there, as TWL hasn't been played in a long time and the twdtb bots and the bots you use on a daily basis do not allow this in basing.

what this is really is a blatant attempt from a desperate team to exploit a minor whining point to get themselves a replay for their captain's rare strategic mistake.

[Mythril]

This thread has gone on way too long. Thanks to everyone who has responded and provided arguments I hadn't considered. But as all things competition related, this has unfortunately devolved into personal attacks and friends going at each other's throats. This is how appeals work - they're only ever submitted by the losing team for a reason they deem justifies a rematch, and the winning team is left with their celebration on pause. One team always gets the short end of the stick. But in the name of fairness, it's expected both teams show competitive integrity by accepting the verdict, regardless of what may be.

I'm put in the unfortunate position of having to make the decision. I've been Thunder core for the last decade. Dreamwin, Cripple, and many of Terrorist's roster are also good friends and have my mutual respect as elite and valuable players in this game. My team is also in the TWDT-B finals, making my decision-making open to further suspicion. I'm well aware of all of this.

I genuinely hope both captains and teams would trust that my decision would only ever be based off objective logic and that the best argument would win out in the end. In the last 24 hours, the dev team provided insight that made this decision an easy one.

Official appeal from Thunder in their round 2 semi-finals match against Terrorist:

I hate to do this, but round 2 was such a joke that it's necessary. JAMAL was in the middle of a bad storm and told us that if he lagged out we should sub him immediately. JAMAL lagged out right before GO GO GO, and I subbed anonym in for him and switched myself into shark. One to two minutes later, JAMAL returned and I was unable to put him back in the game because the bot told me "player not in game." TWL allows you to sub in players that have previously been subbed out, so it makes no sense why TWDT should be any different.

Having our best player watching from spec for 20+ minutes, and leaving a 6* player in his place is ridiculous. I have no complaints about round 3, but it's extremely shitty to end the season with JAMAL in spec for 20+ minutes and myself stuck in shark.

Verdict: Denied

Reasoning: After further investigation by the dev team last night, qan was able to send me the logs of every PM sent to MatchBot10 during the entirety of the match. Thunder never attempted to sub Jamal back into the game, shattering the validity of this appeal. There's no grounds for appealing a bot error that didn't occur. It never had a chance to.

Congratulations to Terrorist for making it to the TWDT-B Finals against Legio XI.

[Voth]

ROFL....unreal.





losers

[With Ease]

Um, check again. I clearly attempted to sub him in. Why else would I tell you to check the logs. I typed sub anonym:Jamal. How else would I know the language of the bot error and why would I waste time in chat talking about it to turban. Your basis for the denial is on false grounds, and it?s insulting you?d think I would make up trying to sub him in. Check the damn server logs about everything I typed

[Voth]

MAN IS DOUBLING DOWN


btw: where's those logs that are inevitably fake showing you whining on team chat that you can't sub Jamal in?


LOL...just curious to read them now. i love TW 2019

[Mythril]

Um, check again. I clearly attempted to sub him in. Why else would I tell you to check the logs. I typed sub anonym:Jamal. How else would I know the language of the bot error and why would I waste time in chat talking about it to turban. Your basis for the denial is on false grounds, and it?s insulting you?d think I would make up trying to sub him in. Check the damn server logs about everything I typed

Qan can check the logs of the Legio XI vs. Gladiator game to see if my PMs registered in that game. But you're the only one who can prove this bot error occurred. If you don't have the logs, the decision is impossible to overturn.

[Rab]

Sounds more likely to me that the command didn't get logged, than Ease made all this up.
Why not do a bot test (without the bug being fixed), try to sub someone back in and see if the sub command gets logged. Post 5 screenshots and the log file.

[zidane]

Lol so you don't have the logs. Could easily test this scenario again by doing a practice game and trying to sub someone back in and see the logs of the bot to compare.

Basically calling him a liar in your decision. What's more likely ease not trying to sub Jamal back in or the bot not logging the bugged command.

disgusting decision and basis to deny a valid appeal without properly testing

[Rab]

It's also really convenient that "evidence" has appeared (without us actually being able to see it), and it happens to be something Ease can't provide evidence to the contrary because he already admitted to not having a log. Had Ease not admitted to not having a log, would this have still happened? *tinfoil*

or did Ease have logs all along and now ur fucked? LOL

[Jessup]

Wait for it guys.. wait for it... here comes the logic...which will be....

Subbing was originally not allowed in the zone.. this is true.. but someone unknown tried to fix it years ago but they failed to fix it because they didn't do the coding job properly. Even though the player base never got to see any of this change because there was no actual change, there was in fact a change. That change unfortunately no one knew about but it was a change even though no one saw this change.



If this logic above is used it will tell us this.....

Never mind that players for years had learned to adapt and play within the original sub system that was never properly fixed.
Never mind that the bot told them all these years no you can't.
Never mind there is no record besides a code input date on the failed fix as any evidence this was attempted.
Never mind we don't even know which person it was who failed the coding process.
Never mind there is no forum record or announcement of this that has surfaced.
Never mind that this is being addressed now during the playoffs after a loss where a 3rd round tiebreaker was still won by terrorist with no other issues.

Hence ....even though you never saw the changes or heard of the changes ... there were changes made and those changes were a bot bug.

ROFL..........

[With Ease]

Are you even sure you checked the right bot? I only have a log of the third round because I logged off to switch to spider keys round 3 and log buffer only went to that point. There were numerous witnesses that saw me complaining early game about the issue, including turban, whom I think we all trust in this community. Your insinuation that I?d make up something so ridiculous is frankly one of the most insultjng things I?ve ever seen in this game.