Community Input: Are New TWD, TWL, TWDT Bots Worth It?

[Riverside]

There's been a lot of discussion around style of play on forums in the past few months.

I think that currently, stats don't necessarily reflect what many players know lead to winning. Examples:

In twdd and twjd, killing someone out when it's 4v4 to bring the game to 3v4 holds more value than killing someone out when it's 1v4.
In twbd, killing a shark with 3 reps is more valuable than killing a shark with 0 reps.

This is what Chaos Zone's 4v4 practice & league bots look like:

Notes:

Rating: Everyone starts at 500: the level of difficulity of your opponents reflects the # of points you get (or lose) as an individual
AS: assist
FR: forced rep
WR: wasted rep
DDealt: Damage Dealt
DTaken: Damage Taken
DmgE: Damage Earned
AccB: Accuracy Bullets
AccG: Accuracy Bombs


!TOP




!PRACSTATS SEISMIC



!GAME #number




A project like this could take a few months, or even a couple years to plan, develop, execute & maintain, especially since this is a volunteer based staff with a lot of hoops & hurdles that many of us are unaware of. I have a lot of appreciation for the folks who continue to keep this game going & growing (u know who u r).

The purpose of this thread is to see if it's worthwhile to explore further.

Would we, as a community, fuck with bots like this?

[Rab]

I think the damage dealt and taken would be cool in basing, but generally those scoreboxes are a bit too much for me. I know some people are on small res so it might not all fit.

[Vehicle]

I'm personally indifferent as I think the R1-4 and KOs in warbird and jav are adequate. Base stats could be better but they really only suck for shark and terr.

I think in terms of resource management, there are better things to spend time coding.

• FIxing elim to encourage fighting
• Streamlining the pub experience
• Adding a timer for the red bars in dtb so we can get automated cram data
• Etc. Etc.

Volunteers?

[RageRitual]

For DD/JD:

The only thing I would like to see added is maybe an accuracy stat. We changed the rating system last year and I doubt any more minor tweaks to it will change much.

For BD:

I think the rating system in it's current state needs work. The rating system does not handle switches/subs very well at all, granting a lot of players 0 rating even if they deserve MVP. The damage stats have been suggested before and having some sort of damage dealt/taken per minute stats would be great. Shark is very hard to judge based off of stats due to the role being extremely situational per death. I honestly doubt we could ever have a great rating for sharks based off of stats, however the more stats we include in the rating could help.

While I do not agree with Rab that we should cater to people with older monitors, we should add as many stats as we can and people can choose to look at what they think is important to them. Instead of putting them all on screen we could have a small selection of stats in the score boxes, then on the TWD website (which needs a lot of work itself) have extended stats.

[apt]

Don’t we have to switch to ASSS for this?

[saiyan]

Wb is 1 hit kill with no specials. Javelin is also largely 1 hit kill with no specials. These game modes cant make proper use of many of these stats.

Damage dealt might be the only useful thing.. For base and maybe jav? :/

I dont think accuracy is very useful because low accuracy will typically lead to low damage dealt, low assists, low frs, etc. But if your accuracy is in the normal range, it doesn't really predict much.

RPD already gives you some insight into WRs

Forced reps were nice, but not perfect. It was all damage based. If you shot at a player and they repped, they would have to rep AFTER being hit in order for your FR to be recorded. If they rep before you hit, you wouldn't get an FR. The player who hit them prior to you firing would get it instead (granted it happened within a short window). If multiple players hit prior, I would like to say either the player who dealt the most damage or the most recent damage would get the FR, but I can't. It was seemingly random sometimes. And if no one hit them within that window prior to your shot, no FR would be recorded. I'm going to assume you know this since you played a bit of chaos, this is just for those reading who don't know.

Assists were also quite nice. but imperfect in the sense that there was a max of 1 awarded per kill no matter how many players contributed to the kill (and the player who was awarded the assist didn't necessarily do the most non-fatal damage, nor the most recent). It creates some ? moments once in a while but it's not a big deal. Generally no one cared. I know I didn't. Because like I've been saying, ERating is king and the only thing that matters is that your team is the first to reach X kills.

That's about all I can type before I go on an offtopic rant.

Don’t we have to switch to ASSS for this?

No, and btw those bots in River's screenshot are probably 15+ years old..

[Riverside]

[Riverside]

Wb is 1 hit kill with no specials. Javelin is also largely 1 hit kill with no specials. These game modes cant make proper use of many of these stats.

Damage dealt might be the only useful thing.. For base and maybe jav? :/

I dont think accuracy is very useful because low accuracy will typically lead to low damage dealt, low assists, low frs, etc. But if your accuracy is in the normal range, it doesn't really predict much.

RPD already gives you some insight into WRs

Forced reps were nice, but not perfect. It was all damage based. If you shot at a player and they repped, they would have to rep AFTER being hit in order for your FR to be recorded. If they rep before you hit, you wouldn't get an FR. The player who hit them prior to you firing would get it instead (granted it happened within a short window). If multiple players hit prior, I would like to say either the player who dealt the most damage or the most recent damage would get the FR, but I can't. It was seemingly random sometimes. And if no one hit them within that window prior to your shot, no FR would be recorded. I'm going to assume you know this since you played a bit of chaos, this is just for those reading who don't know.

Assists were also quite nice. but imperfect in the sense that there was a max of 1 awarded per kill no matter how many players contributed to the kill (and the player who was awarded the assist didn't necessarily do the most non-fatal damage, nor the most recent). It creates some ? moments once in a while but it's not a big deal. Generally no one cared. I know I didn't. Because like I've been saying, ERating is king and the only thing that matters is that your team is the first to reach X kills.

That's about all I can type before I go on an offtopic rant.



No, and btw those bots in River's screenshot are probably 15+ years old..

I don't disagree.

How I think we could implement some of the tools from Chaos Zone:

The scorebox that indicates how many deaths a person has (top right on my last post/screenshot)

As far as stats themselves from the old ass bots that were created by UL and others :

TWDD & TWJD:
Killing someone out would be counted differently by the bot. (KO's are a big objective of the game)
Killing someone who's on their 3rd death in the 15th minute of the game, versus killing someone on their 8th death (to bring them to their 9th) would be counted differently by the bot (depending on that players' rating).
Killing someone 4v1 doesn't hold the same value as killing someone 4v4. Yet right now, it does when you look at a normal statsheet. Chaos Bots rating systems credits kills and deaths differently, at different stages, with a big variable on wins (which can be changed in TW with concerns around playstyles).

TWBD:
The Damage Earned is interesting to me here for terr's: who's giving the damage? What about the damage right before the (S)TD?
Assist matters to me as well for a terrier death
Forced Rep would be interesting to me for sharks and spiders (who are the spids that are pests for sharks)
Damage Dealt & Forced Reps would be interesting for spiders

[Turban]

Only stat which would be nice is damage dealt against terriers and other ships. This could easily be expanded to include assist stats for players who dealt damage to enemy terrier prior to their death.

Accuracy would also be a decent addition, but not as necessary and heard it's nearly impossible to track that one accurately with our server type. We already have a hybrid variant of this in basing which probably is good enough.

There have been multiple talks about adding more analytical stats in the past, but lack of developers has halted every project.

Ideally we would switch to a personal ELO rating system, but I don't see that happening in the foreseeable future.

[RageRitual]

Riverside You can tell who shoots sharks on the TWD website it shows who kills who in the bottom of the score boxes there, this sort of shows who is shooting sharks and forcing repels. KO's are already a part of the rating system in DD and JD. It currently does not make any difference if it is first or last KO, outnumbered, etc.

I don't remember who mentioned it but we did try netting different points for r1-r3 than r4 kills and it ended up not having enough of a change to really bother putting the bot work in.

Turban with Warbirds being one shot one kill, and the bot tracking bullets fired already, this should not be impossible to do an accuracy stat for at least Warbird. Honestly the accuracy stat we already use for base would be good enough for Jav. An ELO system would be great because we could add an avg value per kill so to speak, something like what the F2 menu has but more useful, it would show the difficulty of the opponents you kill. I have 2 more shark stats I have added recently with my nerd sheets, reps per minute and (for lack of a better name) kill safety, what do you think as a shark about adding them in for base? Kill Safety pretty much shows how smart sharks are with their bombs and mines to not tk their team.

Things are slow moving with these things though since we do not have many people capable of actually doing web or bot work on staff, also nobody is actually paid to do it. On that note I think we did have someone working on a replacement for the ancient TWD website.